Real solar system?

[endeavor]

I know, that technically its really easy, to make a full solar system by adding planets and there are a lot of files out there to do so. Now here's the thing: The ones I found... don't really make a real solar system. I mean, the earth has a much larger diameter and an atmosphere to about 80km (not sure about that one). In general, the sfs-system is waaaay too small (not just earth). I'm pretty untalented when it comes to writing code (took me months to figure out how to add a single planet to my system), sooo....
If anybody has a full scale solar system I'd love it, if he or she could upload it. We could also try to make it a community project?
Thanks for reading, I'm going to try my best to figure it out myself (I don't think its gonna work out, but I'll try) and I'll upload it, if there's even people (other than me) who wan't something like that.

 

[SupremeDorian]

People have tried, however it is impossible to resize Earth without the game becoming unplayable at the moment. And when attempts have been made that are somewhat successful, when you zoom all the way out on the map you can just barely see parts of Earth and Mars' orbits. Possible? Yes. Feasible? Maybe not.

 

[endeavor]

Oh... I didn't take into consideration, that the game engine wont be able to handle distances and sizes of that caliber.....

 

[Lt. Snakestrike]

Oh... I didn't take into consideration, that the game engine wont be able to handle distances and sizes of that caliber.....

Yeah, not to mention to low engine Isp makes it virtually impossible to get enough DeltaV to even launch from a realistic earth.

 

[Altaïr]

Yeah, not to mention to low engine Isp makes it virtually impossible to get enough DeltaV to even launch from a realistic earth.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. It would surely be very frustrating. A good compromise would be to make a solar system reduced by a factor 4 (instead of 20 ingame), but the problems @SupremeDorian talked about would still occur...

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

Yeah, not to mention to low engine Isp makes it virtually impossible to get enough DeltaV to even launch from a realistic earth.

Bullshit, the americans use engines with Isps similar or worse to that of the hawk, broadsword and grasshopper and they can still reach orbit. Goes to show its not virtually impossible.

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

What we don't have is a realistic performance system where the engines become exponentially greater in performance as the altitude increases. We won't even be able to try that out since vehicles on any resized planet will just fall through the ground. To solve this issue, we can just create a real engines mod (I posted some concept arts about this on the arts section), where real life engines will replace SFS's shitty ones, this will make the gameplay much easier.

I also presume that players will just spam the use of russian engines since they are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than the US ones in terms of Isp, thrust and re-light-ability.

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

Pardon my weird sentence structure above.

 

[Altaïr]

Bullshit, the americans use engines with Isps similar or worse to that of the hawk, broadsword and grasshopper and they can still reach orbit. Goes to show its not virtually impossible.

I'm surprised about that. That's right for SRBs, but their cryogenic engines are way above that...
But you could still reach orbit indeed. However, your payload in LEO would probably weigh only a few percents of the full launcher mass, like in real life...
The problem is that space navigation would also be a pain after that. A single Trans Lunar Injection would cost slightly more than 3000 m/s. Ingame, that's not far from what you need for a direct transfer... to the Sun
Actually you rather need 3800 m/s for that, so yeah I exagerate a bit, but you get the idea.
That's what makes me tell that the RSS would be very painful.
In scientific terms, there are only two ways to increase delta-V: increasing Isp, or increasing a logarithm. Since you can't touch Isp... Well, you know what increasing a logarithm implies

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

That's right for SRBs, but their cryogenic engines are way above that...

Look it up again, some the efficiency of the jupiter-C is around 248 which is around the same as a Hawk, and the Redstone rocket is around 235 which is even lower than the Titan, not way above that, the increased Isp is due to lower ambient pressure when climbing to higher altitudes, a feature this game probably still does not have.

But you could still reach orbit indeed. However, your payload in LEO would probably weigh only a few percents of the full launcher mass, like in real life...
The problem is that space navigation would also be a pain after that. A single Trans Lunar Injection would cost slightly more than 3000 m/s. Ingame, that's not far from what you need for a direct transfer... to the Sun

He never said anything about payload size or to go beyond LEO, he's just worried about getting up to LEO.

In scientific terms, there are only two ways to increase delta-V: increasing Isp, or increasing a logarithm. Since you can't touch Isp... Well, you know what increasing a logarithm implies

Just make a real engines mod.

 

[Lt. Snakestrike]

Look it up again, some the efficiency of the jupiter-C is around 248 which is around the same as a Hawk, and the Redstone rocket is around 235 which is even lower than the Titan, not way above that, the increased Isp is due to lower ambient pressure when climbing to higher altitudes, a feature this game probably still does not have.


He never said anything about payload size or to go beyond LEO, he's just worried about getting up to LEO.


Just make a real engines mod.

First of all, The Jupiter-C was a redstone rocket, and they were suborbital test vehicles & ICBM's from the 1950's... it's not a good comparison. I know there were orbital rockets with low Isp's, but they'd make it extremely difficult to get anything done... Especially since the higher Isp engines we have are designed with lower thrust.

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

First of all, The Jupiter-C was a redstone rocket, and they were suborbital test vehicles & ICBM's from the 1950's... it's not a good comparison. I know there were orbital rockets with low Isp's, but they'd make it extremely difficult to get anything done... Especially since the higher Isp engines we have are designed with lower thrust.

Whoops, not the Jupiter-C, its Juno-1. Again, the specific impulse are worse off than the engines in the game.

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

Well, it still met your first standards; getting into orbit no matter the payload. Yes, you're right, it can't do shit. At this rate, implementing engines from real life best fit for RSS into the game would solve the "difficulty".

Do expect players to overuse Russian engines, their performances are....irresistible. The only redeemable American engine is the RL-10, since it is the only successful upper stage high efficiency hydrogen engine. The Reds however still stuck to using nasty hypergolics.

 

[TtTOtW]

The Reds however still stuck to using nasty hypergolics.

But it looks so cool...

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

But it looks so cool...

They're expensive to synthesize, and they're a nightmare to clean up. The only good sides is we can create a virtually infinite supply of it, and it is very reliable.

 

[Lt. Snakestrike]

Well, it still met your first standards; getting into orbit no matter the payload. Yes, you're right, it can't do shit. At this rate, implementing engines from real life best fit for RSS into the game would solve the "difficulty".

Do expect players to overuse Russian engines, their performances are....irresistible. The only redeemable American engine is the RL-10, since it is the only successful upper stage high efficiency hydrogen engine. The Reds however still stuck to using nasty hypergolics.

I wouldn't be suprised if people started using a shitload of BE-4's for gigarockets as well...

 

[Altaïr]

They're expensive to synthesize, and they're a nightmare to clean up. The only good sides is we can create a virtually infinite supply of it, and it is very reliable.

I would add it's very toxic, which is why most space agencies avoid relying on them. For example, Kazakhs tend to be angry when a Proton crashes on their territory.
They are still used for satellites or interplanetary probes because they can be stocked during several years, unlike cryogenic propellants that vaporize over time.

Regarding the Earth at real size, I managed to make a try, by editing the save file to change the location of the launcher (it doesn't naturally spawn on the launchpad when Earth radius is increased). In the end... It is BLOODY F***INGLY HARD!!!
I realized that it's not only a problem of low ISP, but the SFS engines also have a bad thrust/weight ratio, and fuel tanks are quite heavy too. The tank itself represents 10% of the weight, but except if we are talking about liquid hydrogen this is rather heavy. At first it doesn't seem that a few percents may drastically change things, but because a rocket is mostly compound of fuel tanks it still has a noticeable impact on the dry mass of the rocket.

In the end, here is the result:

Before you ask, yes that other object orbiting around Earth is the Moon (I didn't change its orbit). Now you can truly realize how tiny is SFS's solar system
And here is the rocket I needed to do this:

 

[TtTOtW]

I would add it's very toxic, which is why most space agencies avoid relying on them. For example, Kazakhs tend to be angry when a Proton crashes on their territory.
They are still used for satellites or interplanetary probes because they can be stocked during several years, unlike cryogenic propellants that vaporize over time.

Regarding the Earth at real size, I managed to make a try, by editing the save file to change the location of the launcher (it doesn't naturally spawn on the launchpad when Earth radius is increased). In the end... It is BLOODY F***INGLY HARD!!!
I realized that it's not only a problem of low ISP, but the SFS engines also have a bad thrust/weight ratio, and fuel tanks are quite heavy too. The tank itself represents 10% of the weight, but except if we are talking about liquid hydrogen this is rather heavy. At first it doesn't seem that a few percents may drastically change things, but because a rocket is mostly compound of fuel tanks it still has a noticeable impact on the dry mass of the rocket.

In the end, here is the result:
View attachment 12853 View attachment 12854
Before you ask, yes that other object orbiting around Earth is the Moon (I didn't change its orbit). Now you can truly realize how tiny is SFS's solar system
And here is the rocket I needed to do this:
View attachment 12855

Man that's nuts!

 

[Horus Lupercal]

Just for comparison, to almost (a few decimal places here and there) match the performance of a single Saturn V F-1 (just one of the 5) would take 2 titans, a grasshopper and 25 ion engines

There are different ways of skinning it (a titan, 2 hawks, a frontier and 20 ions for example).

Even then the F-1 is more efficient, even at sea level.

(Ignore the dry/wet weights. From a different build.)

 

[Altaïr]

Just for comparison, to almost (a few decimal places here and there) match the performance of a single Saturn V F-1 (just one of the 5) would take 2 titans, a grasshopper and 25 ion engines

View attachment 12879
View attachment 12880

There are different ways of skinning it (a titan, 2 hawks, a frontier and 20 ions for example).

Even then the F-1 is more efficient, even at sea level.

(Ignore the dry/wet weights. From a different build.)

Interesting comparison, thanks.
The F1 also had a TWR of 82 (at sea level). If the Titan had such a TWR, it should weigh only 3.75 tons, which is slightly less than a Hawk. We really need to be able to mod engines.

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

I wouldn't be suprised if people started using a shitload of BE-4's for gigarockets as well...

Nah, American rocket technology is still approximately 50 years behind Soviet tech, so do expect their engines to be inferior in comparison. It is estimated that the performance of the BE-4 is to be somewhere lower than the RD-180, and the Reds already have their own version of the BE-4 or Raptor, ever heard of the RD-0164?

Basically the Russian derivative is able to output over 600 pounds of thrust on over throttle, with an efficiency of over 330. The BE-4 can barely pull of 330 in vacuum.

 

[8BitCosmonaut]

If they are to build gigarockets, they will most likely use the RD-170. More powerful and significantly more efficient than the F1 engine, plus it can relight 10 times.

 

[Ana Imfinity]

SFS was intended to scale down celestial bodies to 1/20 and space distances to 1/50, keeping gravity values realistic. However, the Planet Editor parameters show this is not true.

1. Sun's gravity is still weak.
2. The moons of Mars and Jupiter are not where they should be and their gravity values are not real.
3. The moons of Mars and Jupiter are not to scale.

You people have more experience with planet editor. Did anyone tried to adjust the sizes, distances and gravity numbers to scale?

Also, as I add more planets and moons, will there be a limit where the system will become too lag?

Thank you.

 

[Horus Lupercal]

Also, as I add more planets and moons, will there be a limit where the system will become too lag?

Thank you.

I think the system slowly starts going nuts once you add the full solar system to it. I have a save file with almost all the bodies you can download for 1.4, and it's got all of my current missions and objects dotted about and it runs much much slower than my 'clear skies' save which has nothing anywhere.

I say almost, I had to delete loads of bodies because things started getting...glitchy...

 

[TtTOtW]

I think the system slowly starts going nuts once you add the full solar system to it. I have a save file with almost all the bodies you can download for 1.4, and it's got all of my current missions and objects dotted about and it runs much much slower than my 'clear skies' save which has nothing anywhere.

I say almost, I had to delete loads of bodies because things started getting...glitchy...

I keep the default planets and moons as is to avoid glitches, obviously that does not apply to extra bodies. I have A bunch and I hardly use any, mainly because of my Mars mission taking all of my game time. My last other mission was Project ألف where I established a single launch independent and advanced base on Titan. It is still there.i have a beautiful observatory on Diana also.