Team Hawk Instructions!

[Altaïr]

I have a concrete proposal.

Original Mercury Rocket in default game world with "Normal" game difficulty is making exactly 3.601 km of ΔV.

Realistic game difficulty have 20 times more distances and sizes, which requires exactly 20^0.5 = 4.47 times more ΔV for performing the same operations in comparison to the same performance in "Normal" world with 1:20 distances.

This means that we can simply multiply 3.601 by 4.47 and get the number 16.104 km of required ΔV for Realistic.

Original Mercury Rocket itself at Realistic level already can make 6.696 km of ΔV because of x1.5 ISP bonus, much lighter fuel tanks, and little more fuel in those tanks all combined. So we lack only 16.104 - 6.696 = 9.408 km of ΔV.

Thus we can simply add second stage to Original Mercury Rocket, which can make additional +9.408 km of ΔV.

And those two stages - Original Mercury Rocket plus second stage connected to it, orbiting Earth at low orbit above atmosphere (for example at 115 km above the ground) - will be start of the mission.

For example, it can look like this:

Spoiler

View attachment 98475

This second stage can do only 9.399 km of ΔV. It is simple and convenient. And the entire mass of this complex is 372.69 t.

But since it will not be possible to bring this entire complex in one launch from Earth - it must be connected by sections somehow. And connected parts can be dumped during the way to gain little more ΔV.

But connectors also have weight, so making fuel tank parts too small would lose ΔV instead.

For example, "Multi second stage" in the picture below can do 8.978 km of ΔV and it weighs only 296.11 t.

Spoiler

View attachment 98480

So it allows you to make very simple and convenient rules like this:

At Realistic level the starting rocket have to be in LEO at 115/115 km above the ground, and it must have the exactly Original Mercury Rocket plus any kind of separate second+third++ stages as additional propulsion system, with any configuration by players choice, but entire weight of all starting rocket with all stages must be no more than 300 t.

And people can assemble any formation they like, with full comfort, but they still will get no more than +9 km of ΔV from all additional stages.

You can allow more mass, like 320 t, if you wish. For example, this rocket below weighs 326.49 t, but can make only +9.378 km of ΔV.

Spoiler

View attachment 98488

So it is hard to imagine, that somebody can produce more than +9.408 of ΔV with 320 t limitation. And even if somebody will find a way to squeeze little more meters - then let it be, let's appreciate their constructional skills and let them have this little bonus reward then.

Thus in addition to original challenge itself, you also improve it by allowing players to exercise some creativity in designing all additional stages and connecting it in LEO from several launches from Earth. And also this will force them to be much better navigators if they made very inefficient design of their rocket, since they have to complete the mission with less ΔV in their hands.

So, what do you think about all that?

Honestly we would have to try it to check if it's balanced and if the difficulty is comparable. All challenges here have been tested carefully, we can't change the rules like that.

However you can do it in the required conditions to get team Hawk and then try your challenge in realistic mode. I tried myself to do the Voyager Quest in IRIS after doing it in normal mode, so you can do this for the Mercury challenge too if you wish.

 

[Catalyst_Kh]

However you can do it in the required conditions to get team Hawk and then try your challenge in realistic mode.

Please tell me if i understand you correctly.

So, in that topic (link) i completed Mercury challenge in Normal mode and had left 3% of fuel at the end (on the ground). I was not accurate with my getting to Mercury trajectory/strategy. I think being more accurate can save more fuel, at least a few percent more.

So if i will just redo the same path at Realistic, with the same inaccuracies, and still i will have around 3% fuel left after landing to Mercury, that would be like an ideal lucky guess about how much ΔV the player needs to have at the start in LEO?

And if i will have too much fuel left, then i can recalculate and start with a different craft from LEO to test another starting model? So we could have a tested rule of how much maximum total tons of weight is allowed at the start?

 

[BeansSpace]

You have to start with team Titan first. Then team Frontier, and then you can attempt the team Hawk challenges.

Ok thanks

 

[SHΔRD Aerospace]

'cheats are dissalowed' does that mean I can't clip engines for the copycat mission? (they explode)

you can't

 

[SHΔRD Aerospace]

are we allowed to have an orbital rendezvous with the mercury lander, grab it, and go to mercury? (no docking)

 

[Hermes]

are we allowed to have an orbital rendezvous with the mercury lander, grab it, and go to mercury? (no docking)

It says you can do orbital assembly. You also have to do team frontier first.

 

[Cresign]

are we allowed to have an orbital rendezvous with the mercury lander, grab it, and go to mercury? (no docking)

No, it says that no other rockets may be launched

 

[Altaïr]

you can't

Actually clipping is allowed excepted for the Atlas mission, but in the case of engines you have to do it in a way that doesn't make them explode.

 

[SHΔRD Aerospace]

Actually clipping is allowed excepted for the Atlas mission, but in the case of engines you have to do it in a way that doesn't make them explode.

oh

 

[Idkgeek]

oh

Of course if you want an extra challenge there's nothing stopping you from going totally no clip!

 

[Catalyst_Kh]

Mooncrasher , Altaïr

I did put this construction in orbit:

Spoiler

It is 315 tons of weight and almost 16 km of dV combined, where +9.3 km of dV from additional stages. Then i remade Mercury challenge from 104 km LEO at Realistic level.

When i landed on Mercury i had 20% of fuel left, from the last stage - original Mercury lander itself. And i approached Mercury from the front 3 times (and left it till the next meeting around the sun) and only at fourth time I burned all fuel to gain low orbit around it.

I approached Mercury at it's periapsis (perihelion) in his orbit around the sun, as Mooncrasher suggested in other topic (link). Maybe i did it in wrong way and didn't figured out correct idea, but as a result of this approach i had to burn much more extra fuel near Venus to compensate for higher distance in orbits. In the end, all this fuel was spent with very dubious benefit, since if i had approached Mercury at it's apoapsis (apohelion) - it would require only little burn near Venus, and then i could simply make +1 or +2 more meetings with Mercury from it's front, and that would have almost the same benefit (i did that before), but with much less fuel burned for making those extra +1 or +2 rendezvous, than huge amount of fuel, required to burn near Venus to meet Mercury at his perihelion instead. Thus i suspect it is possible to land with 25%+ fuel left, starting in LEO with the ship in the picture above. Maybe i needed to meet with Venus +1 or +2 more times without burning fuel and that would do the trick?

Construction in the picture is unrealistically optimized. With normal play it will be assembled in 2-4 launches from Earth and will be less optimal, at least there will be more connectors, more likely less tanks to drop too, plus players may have mistakes with trajectories. Thus I think you can allow maximum weight up to 320 tons, to cover up for bad stages designs. But since i burned extra fuel and still had 20% left when landed, 315 is good too.

So i suggest the rules like this:

Variation 1:

The Mercury challenge missions starts from LEO with any construction you like, with any additional stages you like, but it must include the original Mercury lander in unchanged form, and the lander must be detachable in some way. And all your ship with everything attached, including Mercury lander, must weigh no more than 315 tons total when you start this mission from LEO.

Variation 2:

The Mercury challenge missions starts from launchpad - first you need to deliver the original Mercury lander and additional stages from launchpad to LEO and assemble it in LEO. You may use any amount of launches. Your build in LEO can be any construction you like, with any additional stages you like, but it must include the original Mercury lander in unchanged form, and the lander must be detachable in some way. And all your ship, before it starts acceleration from LEO, must have a mass no more than 320 tons, with everything attached, including Mercury lander.


And of course, this starting orbital construction must meet all other rules (no ion engines, no cheats, all fair play, etc). And then here you go - Realistic version of Mercury challenge with some nice improvements.

 

[New Horizons]

can we choose to do a flyby of

Spoiler: Condensing my post

Mercury, Venus, Moon, Phobos, and Deimos?

even if we have the planets expansion?

 

[Altaïr]

can we choose to do a flyby of

Spoiler: Condensing my post

Mercury, Venus, Moon, Phobos, and Deimos?

even if we have the planets expansion?

You can, but you have to stick with non DLC parts and with the restricted build space though.

 

[New Horizons]

Build a fully reusable launch system. SSTOs will not be accepted, since the goal of the challenge is to recover, refuel and reassembly all the stages of a rocket. The rocket must be capable to deploy a payload in LEO, then you must land it, reassemble it, and launch the exact same rocket (no second respawn) a second time. You are allowed to refuel the rocket in LEO to land it back, but then the refuel ship must be completely reusable as well. This does not applies for ground equipment and ground facilities, you are free to do whatever you want with them.

So does this mean we allowed to spawn other rockets for refuelling and reassembly?

 

[Altaïr]

So does this mean we allowed to spawn other rockets for refuelling and reassembly?

Yes if refueling occurs on grounded rockets. You can spawn everything you need for this.

 

[New Horizons]

Are we allowed to replicate just a probe, like the New Horizons probe?

 

[Altaïr]

Are we allowed to replicate just a probe, like the New Horizons probe?

No, it must be a rocket.

 

[Blazer Ayanami]

Are we allowed to replicate just a probe, like the New Horizons probe?

No, full rocket.

 

[MasterOgon]

Are there any specific rules for ion thrusters? For example, do not put one on top of the other, the number of tons per engine, etc.

 

[Cresign]

Are there any specific rules for ion thrusters? For example, do not put one on top of the other, the number of tons per engine, etc.

If there arent any written in the rules, then there arent any.

 

[Altaïr]

Are there any specific rules for ion thrusters? For example, do not put one on top of the other, the number of tons per engine, etc.

Yes, they are detailed here:

Ion engines are disallowed, except for the following exception:

• In the Jovian mission, they may be used in a reasonable quantity (aka: no spamming) for an upper stage or a lander. If you're not sure yours is ok, send a picture of your rocket.

 

[MasterOgon]

I don't understand how many engines are reasonable and what counts as spam. Can these ships be considered spam? And if so, why?

 

[Catalyst_Kh]

If you use ion engines only for interplanetary movement, or for in-between moons movements, but use zero ion engines for take-offs and landings, then you are passing for sure. That can be your solid criteria if you seek one.

 

[MasterOgon]

If you use ion engines only for interplanetary movement, or for in-between moons movements, but use zero ion engines for take-offs and landings, then you are passing for sure. That can be your solid criteria if you seek one.

I don't think it would be entirely correct. You can definitely cheat here. I have read that ion thrusters can provide more power if the cooling problem is solved and they are also suitable for low gravity takeoffs and landings. But no matter what I use them for and in what quantity, it seems to me that it would be most correct to add ballast to them, which will play the role of a power source and other things. But I do not know what the mass of this ballast should be.

 

[Catalyst_Kh]

I don't think it would be entirely correct. You can definitely cheat here. I have read that ion thrusters can provide more power if the cooling problem is solved and they are also suitable for low gravity takeoffs and landings. But no matter what I use them for and in what quantity, it seems to me that it would be most correct to add ballast to them, which will play the role of a power source and other things. But I do not know what the mass of this ballast should be.

SFS 1.6 What I believe they will add and what they should add.