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Mars Pathfinder

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#26
I see alot of videos on here.
Here are some YouTubers I recommend for history.
Scott Manley
Exurb1a
Everyday astronaut
I prefer Tim and Scott for Space maybe Vintage Space too if u add her....(She got lot of vids too)
 

Mars Pathfinder

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#27
I prefer Tim and Scott for Space maybe Vintage Space too if u add her....(She got lot of vids too)
Maybe offtopic but AlternateHistoryHub is maybe good for history (alternation)
 
#33
Pretty much. And it has kept you at the top of the food chain and knee deep in hookers and cocaine throughout the 20th century.




Money talks. There's a reason why the further away from the coalface a country/person becomes, the richer and more successful it tends to be. And again, it's not like the US can't. It just has absolutely no will to, because there is a fuckload more cash in selling services than digging a coal mine.




And then you realised 'yeah, he's actually quite right.' Because that is exactly what they're doing. And it has worked for about a hundred years.




Like who...? If Apple can't import its phone from Taiwan and sell them in the US for mad profits, then they'll make them in the US and sell them in the US for mad profits. You seem to forget (which is a feature) that there will always be a demand for devices. And where there is demand, there will always be a supply. Apple aren't suddenly going to stop making iThings because they can't get cheap boy labour making them.
They'll just make them here and hike the prices up to cover the overheads and people will still buy them because there will be no-where else to get them.


And all this my man, just to deflect the conversation away from its original point.




That you know absolutely bugger all about the Nuclear Arms race that formed the backbone of the Cold War and even less about the current state of Detante between the two nations.
My point isn’t that China is better than the US, far from it, but it is not at all worse and while the British empire is long dead and the US is in free collapse the Chinese are rising hard;
That requires a sober assessment, think what you will about the chess board

Interestingly the Chinese also own a huge piece of US debt, along with the Saudis, Germans, Japanese, Koreans and whoever else;
Of course the strange difference is the Chinese are building up poor African nations while US debt was used to build up China by driving its industrial growth;
China wins both ways, this is how the clever spur a nation to empire, the US is food for now and Africa is an emerging market so when debt financiers of the US march its people into darkness and stagnant feudalism it can sustain itself for some time

The great loss of US intellectual property is volunteered by US corporations, the US, meaning it’s tax payers ‘invest’ countless billions into privately managed research and development ‘for the good of everyone’ which corporations are allowed to turn into private patent rights to secure profits for only themselves;
The Chinese look at their vault full of junk bonds and think nothing of demanding intel from corporations seeking to do business in and around China, to which US corporations are happy to hand over tax payer funded R&D to make further profits for only themselves...
Is this not an internal espionage problem of the US?...arrest Jeff Bezos and all the rest for treason, has this asshole offered any of his Covid windfall to any sort of public service?
No, he just spent 2020 fighting worker’s union proposals so he can make more in 2021 because he’s a great entrepreneur

Apple cannot make phones for mad profits in the US, but they could negotiate to continue making them as they are and widen their market share in China and India which could make the US expendable when its currency is rejected as the global standard and it is finally bankrupted;
I’m sure Rupert Murdock would be happy to provide a nice gated community in the Beijing suburbs for any billionaires looking for greener pastures

Your History Book Is Wrong: The U.S. Navy Was Fighting the Japanese Years Before Pearl Harbor

Some laughably naive lines in this article, but fair enough on facts;
The Japanese were welcomed to an all you can eat Chinese buffet thanks to the Opium Wars, in 1937 the US failed to convince them that the US was neutral in Japanese-Chinese relations as the US Navy was openly assisting the Chinese way up river and in a barrage of Japanese belligerence a US gunboat escorting Chinese oil was shelled heavily;
Japanese paid $2m for this perhaps foolish misstep or probably calculated statement to make the US think twice about its meddling and yet avoid war, a fair bit more cowboy than these Chinese planes flying the edge of international waters now a days but somehow taking equal weight in the papers

So then, after this and before the attack on Pearl Harbor amid rising anti-Japanese sentiment among ‘voters’, Roosevelt moved the Fleet from San Diego to Hawaii and began stocking B-17s in the Philippines;
B-17s have one mission program, so clearly Japan’s Chinese buffet was over and they only had 2 options and they weren’t going to bend over for Roosevelt
 

Horus Lupercal

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#34
Oh, a new location. Yay.

Well, since we've sidestepped the original (and entirely wrong) point about nuclear weapons, lets see what you've got for me.

Oh dear.

My point isn’t that China is better than the US
That has literally been your point throughout not just this conversation, but the vast majority of them.


but it is not at all worse
It is. It really, really, really is.

while the British empire is long dead
Erm, no


the US is in free collapse
Erm, no


the Chinese are rising hard
Erm...no.


The great loss of US intellectual property is volunteered by US corporations, the US, meaning it’s tax payers ‘invest’ countless billions into privately managed research and development ‘for the good of everyone’ which corporations are allowed to turn into private patent rights to secure profits for only themselves;
The Chinese look at their vault full of junk bonds and think nothing of demanding intel from corporations seeking to do business in and around China, to which US corporations are happy to hand over tax payer funded R&D to make further profits for only themselves...
Is this not an internal espionage problem of the US?...arrest Jeff Bezos and all the rest for treason, has this asshole offered any of his Covid windfall to any sort of public service?
No, he just spent 2020 fighting worker’s union proposals so he can make more in 2021 because he’s a great entrepreneur

Apple cannot make phones for mad profits in the US, but they could negotiate to continue making them as they are and widen their market share in China and India which could make the US expendable when its currency is rejected as the global standard and it is finally bankrupted;
I’m sure Rupert Murdock would be happy to provide a nice gated community in the Beijing suburbs for any billionaires looking for greener pastures
Whilst I'm not going to get into your economics game because unlike History and Maths, economics is a subjective sport at best depending on your viewpoint, I will say this.
Faults of US corporations are not just the fault of the US government. You are as much to blame. Corporations don't become rich all by themselves. Also, whilst I won't speak about in the US, in the UK Amazon has been literally throwing money at delivery drivers since the start of the first big lockdown in March. If you have a van, you could turn up at the depot and they'd give you £165 a day just to deliver packages cos they couldn't do it themselves and keep up with demand.
As a bit of context for those that can't do the exchange rate, I was going to do it (being as I own a van). That's waay above what you'd get for driving light, heavy and dangerous commercial goods here. That's double what I earn as an 18 yr paratrooper. Doing so would've tripled my take home wages per month if you include my pay from the Army. Ultimately I worked throughout the VID so couldn't.
And why should he? That's what people seem to forget, you can't force people to contribute here in the west and force them to hand over profits. You have no right to ask and he is under no obligation to answer.

This isn't the USSR or CCP, thank fuck.


Some laughably naive lines in this article
Yes. Every single word spoken by the Japanese was a fucking lie. But hindsight is great.


The Japanese were welcomed to an all you can eat Chinese buffet thanks to the Opium Wars
You've used this line before.

in 1937 the US failed to convince them that the US was neutral in Japanese-Chinese relations as the US Navy was openly assisting the Chinese way up river and in a barrage of Japanese belligerence a US gunboat escorting Chinese oil was shelled heavily;
Erm, that's not how it works. You know the US was also helping the UK quite extensively at the start of both WWI and WWII (Although, if you want a real rabbit hole, the US was also supplying the Germans right up until Pearl Harbour)? And Germany did absolutely everything they could to tiptoe around US shipping and assets. Remember Vietnam? Those Russian 'advisors' that the US airforce was forbidden to bomb back into the stoneage for helping the VC? How about current conflicts? Iranian and Chinese tech being delivered in the hands of Al-Qaeda and Daesh? Or the US selling stinger missiles to the Muj?
News flash man, it happens all the bloody time. But you don't 'belligerently' shoot them up and then complain when the US moves the Pacific Fleet.


Yes, those naughty meddling Americans. Meddling against the Japanese 'peacefully imposing' its dominance over Chinese and British assets in the region, 'perfectly reasonably' raping and murdering several hundred thousand people and threatening US assets in the region. And before you say 'assets the US stole', which can be true. However, just cos I stole it, doesn't make you morally justified to kill me, my family and several bystanders to steal it for yourself.


but somehow taking equal weight in the papers
Yeah. I don't agree with the whole upgrading problems the papers do. Like when the RAF intercepts the odd Bear here or there, the press here makes a huge deal about it, despite it being a thing that has happened almost daily for...well over 50 years. Hell, people seem to forget that there is actual bi-lateral treaties in place that allow Bears to fly over and photograph stuff here and we do the same over there or some nothing burger of a naval emergency a few year back where the papers thought WWIII was going to happen after the USS Porter hit Syria and the Russians sent their latest warship into the area.
Forgetting the warship was primarily anti-submarine and anti-air and would've lasted about 15 minutes against a pair of US Navy guided missile destroyers.


So then, after this and before the attack on Pearl Harbor amid rising anti-Japanese sentiment among ‘voters’, Roosevelt moved the Fleet from San Diego to Hawaii and began stocking B-17s in the Philippines;
So then, after this and before the attack on Pearl Harbor amid rising Japanese aggression in the Pacific, Roosevelt moved the Fleet from San Diego to Hawaii and began stocking B-17s in the Philippines;

Fixed it for you. Japan was no 'innocent' party in this. It had no right to start taking territories. And before you point and scream 'but the US and UK did it!!', still doesn't make what Japan did correct. Like I said, just cos I stole a thing, doesn't give you the right to come in my house, shoot me, my family and a few bystanders so you can steal it for yourself.
And if you make moves that makes it look like you're gonna do so, then I'm going to take steps to mitigate that. Like moving the Fleet to Pearl.

However. Here's genuinely where you continue to show your lack of strategic planning experience, so allow me to illuminate you.


B-17s have one mission program, so clearly Japan’s Chinese buffet was over and they only had 2 options and they weren’t going to bend over for Roosevelt
BOMBERS!! OH MER GERD! Someone subscribes to the Daily Mail school of military planning. Firstly, Japans buffet was illegal and a fucking war crime from start to finish, they shouldn't have been doing it in the first place so please stop making it out to be otherwise. Second, not invading China and staying at home aside, B-17s based in the Philippines aren't any sort of threat to Japan, as long as it stays the fuck at home and stops invading the Far East.
Why?
Because unlike what you, the Daily Mail and other people seem to think, bombers (especially heavy bombers) aren't all this unlimited range, super powerful stick poised to vaporise your city from 3000miles away. That fact is almost true. And the exception is the B-17 Flying Fortress.
Why?
Because the B-17, whilst a magnificient aircraft, has an absolutely terrible endurance and bombload when compared to a Lancaster or Super Fortress. The reason for that is because it's as tough as old boots (genuinely, look into just how robust a B-17 actually is. They were so tough, the Lufwaffe had to completely change how they did business because a single Flying Fortress could absorb more punishment than a group of cannon armed Fw-190 could actually dish out).

Now, if you did your research, you'll note that the B-17 has a 2,000 mile maximum range.

How far is Manila from Tokyo?
1700miles.

2000 miles.jpg


YAHTZEE!

Except, no it isn't. See, now combat aircraft have several different versions of 'maximum range' You have ferry range (How far it can be flown one way, no weapons and max fuel for delivery or re-assignment). You have maximum range, which is what this is, and that is the maximum distance it can be expected to fly with a combat load (in this case, 2000kg). So it will fly to Tokyo. And then run out of fuel, splashing down just off the coast of Japan.
What we use in the real world of planning is combat range, and this is affected by several factors like theatre of operations, payload weight and stores locations. A B-17 with 2000kg bomb load and keeping a 25% fuel reserve (Standard 8th USAAF procedure) could be used to target a location no more than 800miles from its take off point.

So where is 800 miles from the Philippines?

Right here.

800 miles.jpg


Oh dear. This is hardly that much of a direct threat to the Japanese mainland is it? Infact, as long as the Japs stay the fuck at home and don't invade places they have no claim to, then they're not going to need to 'bend over to Roosevelt' are they...?
 

Horus Lupercal

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#35
Infact, whilst I've got a map and your attention, lets have a look at a few other strategic decisions the US made around here that you had 'questionable' theories as to why they happened.

The main one being the reason why the US 'abandoned' Guam in favour of the Philippines 'cos ladyboys'.

So here's another map, slightly panned downwards.

general.jpg


You'll notice a load of lines and circles. The tiny circle is around Guam. The big ones mark an 800 mile perimeter around the Philippines and her all important ladyboys.
Now, Guam isn't quite that strategically important. It's out of aircraft range of almost everywhere (until late war, with the introduction of B-29 long range bombers), is strategically isolated, its location blocks almost no movement, especially with relation to the other strategically important areas in the Pacific.
Whereas the Philippines blocks everything from the South China Sea all the way down to Papua New Guinea (just out of shot to the south) and forms a land, sea and air barrier for places like Brunei, Singapore, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia, as losing all these places can (and did, when they were all eventually lost) threatened them as well.

Also, just for reference, not only are the B-17s out of range of Japan, but that super-threatening fleet based at Pearl Harbour? Isn't even on this map. Pearl is another 2000 miles to the right of Wake Island, shown enter right.


Please dude. Think about what you say. Do the research. Because whilst I will accept that the US government allowed Pearl Harbour to happen, it certainly didn't push the Japanese into doing it.
It only allowed it because it was the only way Congress was going to allow Roosevelt to end Isolationism, to stop Japan legally and sort out Europe was well.
 

4KidsOneCamera

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#37
horus you should be a teacher
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Once Horus leaves his military position, he ought to become a lawyer. He clearly loves debating every subject.
 

Horus Lupercal

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#38
horus you should be a teacher
I've been teaching for about a decade-ish now. Slightly different concepts than things like this, but occasionally it crops up.
And if you can teach a thing, then you can teach anything.


I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Once Horus leaves his military position, he ought to become a lawyer.
Just need a few degrees and a lot of time in university...


He clearly loves debating every subject.
Ha, not every subject. Remember, cookery, you can spout any old shit and I'll leave you to it because I know little and care less about the subject.
However, if I've got a passion for it, you're wrong and I can objectively prove why...
 

4KidsOneCamera

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#39
Ha, not every subject. Remember, cookery, you can spout any old shit and I'll leave you to it because I know little and care less about the subject.
However, if I've got a passion for it, you're wrong and I can objectively prove why...
I was gonna mention that...didn’t realize you still remembered that whole conversation. Maybe we ought to get you in culinary school, teach you a thing or two about cooking.
 

Horus Lupercal

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#40
I was gonna mention that...didn’t realize you still remembered that whole conversation. Maybe we ought to get you in culinary school, teach you a thing or two about cooking.
I have quite a good long term memory for things like this.

You could do, it's always good to learn new things though even if I became a chef, you'd likely still not catch me on masterchef forums shouting Shame! at people.

Although, come to think of it, I need to find or manipulate a reason to use Gordon Ramseys ITS FUCKING RAW! somewhere in conversation
 

JSP

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#41
I have quite a good long term memory for things like this.

You could do, it's always good to learn new things though even if I became a chef, you'd likely still not catch me on masterchef forums shouting Shame! at people.

Although, come to think of it, I need to find or manipulate a reason to use Gordon Ramseys ITS FUCKING RAW! somewhere in conversation
You just did
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#45
Horus,
Rog,
guys...

Have you considered making your own thread for these debates? Or is it better to keep having them on every single other thread...? :p
 

Horus Lupercal

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#46
Horus,
Rog,
guys...

Have you considered making your own thread for these debates? Or is it better to keep having them on every single other thread...? :p
This is the Roger Jolly history thread, that's why he ported his reply here.