Beta releasing of the overhauled challenge system!

[Mooncrasher]

Hello everyone.

I've had the overhauled challenges sitting at 90% done in my inbox for a while, I've decided to release them with 95% done and let you beta test them for us so you don't need to wait as long.
You can now find tier 1 here, next tiers will be coming soon-soon™.

The most important/interesting changes:

• The challenges are now simply graded instead of pass/fail.
  • Most are graded on a scale of 0-5, so I'll break that scale down here
    • Doing everything by the description with minimum effort earns a 3
    • You get the challenge badge if you score 4 or 5
    • Most challenges that were accepted in the past were a 3 or 4, so yes now we're expecting that all submissions should be of a slightly higher minimum effort/quality to achieve the badge
    • If you score a 5 with an exceptional challenge, you're considered to have 100%'ed it
• All the rules and requirements have been made more understandable and apply to all challenges and tiers as much as possible, with specific changes documented on a per-challenge basis.
• 100%'ing.... That's now an official recognition for getting enough exceptional submissions
  • You don't get a different challenge badge because of it. However if you 100% all the "core" challenges of a tier....
    • You get an exclusive 100% completion badge to show off instead of one of your challenge badges!
      • This badge will grant some forum permissions, but it's mainly to show that you went above and beyond for all challenges of that tier
• We've done our best to calibrate such expectation thresholds for each tier, to keep it not too insane . You will be able to reference the grading system shown for a challenge with the previous challenge submissions that will build up as time passes
  • Essentially there's a general expection of what someone trying for tier [x] is capable of, and the subjective aspects of grading will be calibrated from that
• Bonus challenges! We wanted to have the ability to turn interesting ideas we saw into new challenges, but we recognised that many such challenges will be rather niche so we don't want people to feel forced to do challenges that don't deal with core game aspects
  • So now we have bonus challenges that grant a challenge badge, but aren't necessary to get the 100% badge for a tier
  • Tier 1's inital bonus challenge is making a colony, tier 2's inital bonus challenge will be bp editing a steam engine
  • We'll definitely add more soon. For starters, the vague planet editing rank system will be turned into clearly defined bonus challenges

 

[Mooncrasher]

Reserved

 

[Mooncrasher]

Reserved

 

[John Spaceflight Simulator]

Hello everyone.

• • • • This badge will grant some forum permissions, but it's mainly to show that you went above and beyond for all challenges of that tier

Nice

 

[Darthan]

(I also looked at the proposed Tier 1 details)

The problem I have with this is that now ALL badges now have a subjective element in order to pass. There is a list (of sorts) for what may be needed for a grade 4 pass but grade 5 has nothing beyond the fact that a judge is impressed. This makes it a bit difficult to decide exactly what is needed in order to pass and impossible for grade 5 - which may as well be random. The subjective element also means that there will be inconsistency between judges - one may pass a mission, another may not.

Not quite sure how to resolve these. For a grade 4 pass, having a definitive list with a minimum number of items to achieve, rather that a 'for example' list, might remove the subjective element. Unfortunately additional forum permissions are tied to grade 5 which is 100% subjective, so gaining this is effectively random. Perhaps an extra badge that gives additional forum permissions could also be given if grade 4 is reached for all core and the bonus mission(s)?

I suppose this depends on what people want from a badge system. Something that can be worked towards or simply recognition for having achieved something.

 

[Mooncrasher]

I suppose this depends on what people want from a badge system. Something that can be worked towards or simply recognition for having achieved something.

We've noticed that things are much more engaging when there's an actual process of someone going "this is what I'm doing and this is what I'll do next" with people chiming in to offer constructive criticism and encouragement, rather than an info dump and a "yeah" or "nah, redo" result that dampens all further talk.

As for fairness and subjectivity, there's already a bonus mission in tier one where it's explicitly outlined that extra judges can and will be involved if necessary. I have no issues with expanding that to other missions if this beta test deems it necessary.

Fundamentally, the old system made no distinction between low and high effort submissions so long as the rules were followed. The only reward people got for a high effort submission was hopefully some praise. If this beta test shows people engaging more with "work in progress" submissions in terms of constructive feedback and general praise, then that would be a win from this beta.

From my perspective, if the list for grade 4 and above is lacking, that's because it's not exhaustive and I'm looking forward to people coming up with ingenious things to stand out.

 

[Mario Hobbs]

This is certainly interesting, though with the subjectivity Darthan has mentioned, I grow rather concerned; after all one person's low effort submission might be another's high effort. Also for the tier 2 bonus challenge of "Bp-editing a steam engine" would that merely be something that looks like a steam engine and has the same sort of motion as one, or would we somehow have to simulate boiling water in SFS?

 

[Mooncrasher]

This is certainly interesting, though with the subjectivity Darthan has mentioned, I grow rather concerned; after all one person's low effort submission might be another's high effort.

Then I hope that the forum citizens can help the people who need it to grow their skills and become an outstanding member.

Also for the tier 2 bonus challenge of "Bp-editing a steam engine" would that merely be something that looks like a steam engine and has the same sort of motion as one, or would we somehow have to simulate boiling water in SFS?
View attachment 127233

You'll have to wait and see, but I can tell you that boiling water is not expected, and that there's an aesthetic and functional side which people have some room to play around with in terms of what they consider more important.

 

[Darthan]

We've noticed that things are much more engaging when there's an actual process of someone going "this is what I'm doing and this is what I'll do next" with people chiming in to offer constructive criticism and encouragement, rather than an info dump and a "yeah" or "nah, redo" result that dampens all further talk.

The way I usually work on badges is to make a few tests, maybe a few attempts then post when I think I've succeded. I might ask a few questions if I'm unsure about something. If there is no clear criteria for 'success' then it will likely never be posted (maybe not even attempted) - which is the ultimate talk dampener! For me, the main motivation is solving the problem then posting the proposed solution to confirm I succeeded. Others may work differently however.

 

[Lt. Snakestrike]

A decent amount of the challenges are quite similar to the past ones. I don't have any problem with redoing them though, I think it's great for achievement and having goals; my questions:

With regards to the requirement of "Design a reasonably original rocket", I assume that rules out vehicles let SCS Radiant/Tenebrous (which are a collaboration, a lot of work from the old SE guys and then modified by me for my purposes). This is not required to be designed from scratch though, is it? I'd love to be able to utilize my existing catalog and take the challenges as an opportunity to modernize them.

I thought I had another question as well but it has slipped my mind now.

 

[Mario Hobbs]

May as well use this thread to discuss the tier one challenges as well, but its certainly interesting that infinite build area is allowed on some missions. and the Bp-editing rules are a bit odd, like are sized probes allowed?

 

[Mooncrasher]

With regards to the requirement of "Design a reasonably original rocket", I assume that rules out vehicles let SCS Radiant/Tenebrous (which are a collaboration, a lot of work from the old SE guys and then modified by me for my purposes). This is not required to be designed from scratch though, is it? I'd love to be able to utilize my existing catalog and take the challenges as an opportunity to modernize them.

It's not a hard border, I can imagine that converting complex 1.4 vehicles that you were originally involved with, over to 1.5 would provide a justification.

May as well use this thread to discuss the tier one challenges as well, but its certainly interesting that infinite build area is allowed on some missions. and the Bp-editing rules are a bit odd, like are sized probes allowed?

The logic is that as much as possible should be allowed if it doesn't negatively affect the intention of the mission.

What exactly happens when you resize a probe? The bp editing rules revolve around the outcome of a resizing.

 

[Mario Hobbs]

When you resize a probe it becomes thinner and weighs less, though it has the same torque. So i'm not sure, as keeping the same amount of torque could be an advantage. And where would the other type of resizing where you merely change its size but keep the weight fall?

 

[Mooncrasher]

When you resize a probe it becomes thinner and weighs less, though it has the same torque. So i'm not sure, as keeping the same amount of torque could be an advantage.

If it's not an advantage then it should be alright.

And where would the other type of resizing where you merely change its size but keep the weight fall?

When you increase the size and gain an advantage from the lack of extra weight. If you're intent on it for some specific reason, explicitly compensate via ballast.

 

[Mario Hobbs]

If it's not an advantage then it should be alright.


When you increase the size and gain an advantage from the lack of extra weight. If you're intent on it for some specific reason, explicitly compensate via ballast.

So would decreasing the size but keeping the same amount of weight be tolerated?

 

[Mooncrasher]

Yep

 

[Mooncrasher]

Tier 1 is no longer beta, might still experience tweaks as needed.
I've released most of tier 2: Tier 2 challenges (beta release)