Halp me, I'm just some noob player :(

Blazer Ayanami

Space Shuttle enthusiast // Retired Admin
Registered
Forum Legend
#76
Send me the .bp on a pm dude. I'll do something similar to what I did with Dannys Paladin, copy it onto my sheets and play with the numbers.

Looking at it very early on though, you're gonna need more titans. Even with everything firing at once you're only just breaking even TWR wise (1.09)

My assumption is your third stage is an interstellar pusher vehicle for this 2500t mass you want to deliver to Venus? And needs to arrive at say...100km LEO without burning any of its fuel?
And stage 2 wet mass is just shy of a kiloton. That's definitely gonna need titans as 4 frontiers isn't even half of what that needs lift wise.
I should better send you the .bp So you see it by yourself.
 

Altaïr

Space Stig, Master of gravity
Staff member
Head Moderator
Team Kolibri
Modder
TEAM HAWK
Atlas
Deja Vu
Under Pressure
Forum Legend
#77
That's nice Horus Lupercal :)

As you're on it I'll let you have a look, but just to give my two cents, I'm generally not keen on mixing several types of engines. There can be good reasons to do it, but keep in mind that each additional engine adds mass, which decreases delta-V (even if on the other hand you can raise your Isp that way).

Specific impulse is a very important parameter to maximize your delta-V, but dry mass is important aswell! That's why using a calculator is useful, because it can calculate all of this for you, so you know if your choice is a good deal or not in the end.
 
#78
That's nice Horus Lupercal :)

As you're on it I'll let you have a look, but just to give my two cents, I'm generally not keen on mixing several types of engines. There can be good reasons to do it, but keep in mind that each additional engine adds mass, which decreases delta-V (even if on the other hand you can raise your Isp that way).

Specific impulse is a very important parameter to maximize your delta-V, but dry mass is important aswell! That's why using a calculator is useful, because it can calculate all of this for you, so you know if your choice is a good deal or not in the end.
The greater the wet mass to dry mass ratio and the ISP, the greater the delta v, right? But having high delta v is useless if your TWR can't lift you off your launchpad. On the contrary, having too much TWR waste lots of delta v, so I need to lower the throttle while I'm on the thickest part of the atmosphere but once I'm a few km. above the thick part, I can now put the throttle on max. Are all of those correct?
 

Pink

(Mooncrasher)
Staff member
Team Valiant
Discord Staff
Voyager Quest
Man on the Moon
Forum Legend
#79
Yes to all of them.
And I recommend having a low enough TWR at launch with 100% throttle. Because that means that you have just enough engines, which means you aren't wasting extra mass on too many engines.
 

Altaïr

Space Stig, Master of gravity
Staff member
Head Moderator
Team Kolibri
Modder
TEAM HAWK
Atlas
Deja Vu
Under Pressure
Forum Legend
#81
That's exactly that.
To be precise, delta-V is calculated that way:
DV = g(Earth)×Isp×Ln(1 + fuel_mass/dry_mass)

So when you're on a ballistic trajectory, it's just a matter of Isp and "fuel/dry" ratio indeed.

Now when fighting a gravitational field, TWR is also important (actually that's even more important). Isp is still helpful of course: if an engine has the same thrust than another one but a higher Isp, it means it will consume less fuel. For this, it can be interesting to increase drastically your thrust, even if you lose a few seconds of Isp to do so.

Having a lot of TWR can't really hurt, but as Mooncrasher explained it very well, it can be overkill: you could already get a very good result with less engines. Now in a sandbox mode it won't really hurt you. It would if you were in a carreer mode and if you had to pay for each engine :)

Regarding the atmosphere, what really hurts is if you reach a high speed in a thick atmosphere (which is more likely to happen with a high TWR indeed, even if this is not directly related). Especially if your rocket isn't aerodynamic. That's another parameter to optimize. If your TWR is too high at a given moment, don't forget you can always reduce it by adjusting your throttle ;)
 

Altaïr

Space Stig, Master of gravity
Staff member
Head Moderator
Team Kolibri
Modder
TEAM HAWK
Atlas
Deja Vu
Under Pressure
Forum Legend
#89
That's it. Where can I get One of these calculators?
Here is mine:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...zOEbB5pSJMOjeiR-ES4y0HOzxy8/edit?usp=drivesdk
It's in "read only" mode, but you can make your own copy and work on it from your phone by using google sheets.

It simply uses the delta-V formula above, but automates a lot of painful process.
For example: I calculated fuel mass, dry mass for my ship and its delta-V. I'd like to have a bit more, so I may just add a slightly bigger fuel tank... But this changes fuel mass. Ok, I'll recalculate. Oh no, it also changes dry mass, I forgot! Well I have to recalculate that too.
And what if I change the engine... this changes Isp. Oh but this also changes dry mass!! I have to recalculate everything again!!! :mad:

That file is precisely designed to avoid all those things. You can change the engine, add more fuel... It recalculates everything automatically.
 

Blazer Ayanami

Space Shuttle enthusiast // Retired Admin
Registered
Forum Legend
#90
Here is mine:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...zOEbB5pSJMOjeiR-ES4y0HOzxy8/edit?usp=drivesdk
It's in "read only" mode, but you can make your own copy and work on it from your phone by using google sheets.

It simply uses the delta-V formula above, but automates a lot of painful process.
For example: I calculated fuel mass, dry mass for my ship and its delta-V. I'd like to have a bit more, so I may just add a slightly bigger fuel tank... But this changes fuel mass. Ok, I'll recalculate. Oh no, it also changes dry mass, I forgot! Well I have to recalculate that too.
And what if I change the engine... this changes Isp. Oh but this also changes dry mass!! I have to recalculate everything again!!! :mad:

That file is precisely designed to avoid all those things. You can change the engine, add more fuel... It recalculates everything automatically.
Thanks I'll give it a try :)
 
#91
When calculating the TWR of my lunar lander. I should use Moon's g instead of using Earth's, right? For example, I have a 15.5-ton lander using a Grasshopper engine. I have to multiply its mass to 1.42 then divide 90 kN by the answer I just got. Is my procedure correct?
 

Pink

(Mooncrasher)
Staff member
Team Valiant
Discord Staff
Voyager Quest
Man on the Moon
Forum Legend
#92
Not quite.
According to my notes:
Thrust(kN)/mass(tons) = acceleration.
This number is how quickly your spacecraft would accelerate with no gravity.
This comes from F=ma.

Acceleration/local gravity = TWR.
Where local gravity is the gravity of whatever object that you want to find TWR for. (In this case, 1.42 for the Moon)
You divide the space acceleration by local gravity, to find what's left over, because that's what TWR is. It's how much thrust you have left over after you account for gravity.
 

Altaïr

Space Stig, Master of gravity
Staff member
Head Moderator
Team Kolibri
Modder
TEAM HAWK
Atlas
Deja Vu
Under Pressure
Forum Legend
#93
When calculating the TWR of my lunar lander. I should use Moon's g instead of using Earth's, right? For example, I have a 15.5-ton lander using a Grasshopper engine. I have to multiply its mass to 1.42 then divide 90 kN by the answer I just got. Is my procedure correct?
That's correct :)
The only (small) mistake here is the engine thrust: actually a Grasshoper generates 96 kN. The numbers have been rounded in the interface.
 

Altaïr

Space Stig, Master of gravity
Staff member
Head Moderator
Team Kolibri
Modder
TEAM HAWK
Atlas
Deja Vu
Under Pressure
Forum Legend
#94
Not quite.
According to my notes:
Thrust(kN)/mass(tons) = acceleration.
This number is how quickly your spacecraft would accelerate with no gravity.
This comes from F=ma.

Acceleration/local gravity = TWR.
Where local gravity is the gravity of whatever object that you want to find TWR for. (In this case, 1.42 for the Moon)
You divide the space acceleration by local gravity, to find what's left over, because that's what TWR is. It's how much thrust you have left over after you account for gravity.
Both methods are correct actually. You calculate a/g, while he calculates (m×a)/(m×g), but the result will be the same in the end.
 

Pink

(Mooncrasher)
Staff member
Team Valiant
Discord Staff
Voyager Quest
Man on the Moon
Forum Legend
#95
Both methods are correct actually. You calculate a/g, while he calculates (m×a)/(m×g), but the result will be the same in the end.
Ah, I see now. Thanks.