Smallest Orbital Rocket
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That's stupid because in order to lessen the effects of drag you need a lower TWR, but if you have a low TWR you can't gain enough vertical component of velocity(which is further reduced with drag).
Vice versa, if you want enough vertical component, have a higher TWR, but that generates too much drag(which lowers the TWR and efficiency)
You're just going to be stuck in this dumb cycle and the most optimal balence(1.2<=TWR<=1.5) still doesn't eliminate the problem.
SO ITS BETTER TO ELIMINATE THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, DON'T RESUME GAME.
Vice versa, if you want enough vertical component, have a higher TWR, but that generates too much drag(which lowers the TWR and efficiency)
You're just going to be stuck in this dumb cycle and the most optimal balence(1.2<=TWR<=1.5) still doesn't eliminate the problem.
SO ITS BETTER TO ELIMINATE THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, DON'T RESUME GAME.
Horus Lupercal
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LOL i just did what you said and i think i experienced drag for the first time since i have started playing months ago.
I could never guess i should left and load the game again, good to know this will be fixed next update.
That also explains why i could not see the difference if i turned on the "no atmosphere" setting.
I could never guess i should left and load the game again, good to know this will be fixed next update.
That also explains why i could not see the difference if i turned on the "no atmosphere" setting.
I didn't mean to sound rude(if that's accidentally expressed through my tone of vouce) sorry. I just wanted to respectfully state my opinion.
And the only way to do that is to add more fuel = more weight = even lower TWR = get more dV and the cycle repeats.
Or I can try to add more dV by using higher Isp engines(aka Frontier, 3 boardsword) with high thrust, but that does not solve the problem of low vertical component of velocity which limits how much you can tilt.
You mean streamlined with cones and little un-smooth parts. The former is already done, doesn't help that much. The latter can be done with simple, beginer level rockets but not for complex, advanced, specialized ones.
Drag will always drag you down despite the best attempts, the best is to allow a small amount of it by not resuming.
And the only way to do that is to add more fuel = more weight = even lower TWR = get more dV and the cycle repeats.
Or I can try to add more dV by using higher Isp engines(aka Frontier, 3 boardsword) with high thrust, but that does not solve the problem of low vertical component of velocity which limits how much you can tilt.
You mean streamlined with cones and little un-smooth parts. The former is already done, doesn't help that much. The latter can be done with simple, beginer level rockets but not for complex, advanced, specialized ones.
Drag will always drag you down despite the best attempts, the best is to allow a small amount of it by not resuming.
Horus Lupercal
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Or, take heed to the words of the great Colin Chapman. Simplify, and add lightness.
The reason why frontier is tonk is because it generates less thrust than an engine half its weight. Swap the frontiers for hawks, or Titan, lower your dry mass and watch the Dv come up.
And the whole point is to add weight with fuel if you want to lower your TWR and increase Dv.
I dunno about that. The most complex launch vehicles on this forum are built going back and fore the main screen turning on and off zero g which means Ark, Fireball, Tsar, Gantor, Komodo, Insight etc are launched drag enabled. If you wanna talk complex draggy builds, Insight is 5 flipped build screens wide, weighs 7,800tons and is totally flat topped, being a single stage aircraft carrier to orbit. It could barely lift its own weight, didn't break the sound barrier until it was 11km up and took over 4,000m/s of Dv to get it to LEO, but it still got there, drag and everything.
The reason why frontier is tonk is because it generates less thrust than an engine half its weight. Swap the frontiers for hawks, or Titan, lower your dry mass and watch the Dv come up.
And the whole point is to add weight with fuel if you want to lower your TWR and increase Dv.
I dunno about that. The most complex launch vehicles on this forum are built going back and fore the main screen turning on and off zero g which means Ark, Fireball, Tsar, Gantor, Komodo, Insight etc are launched drag enabled. If you wanna talk complex draggy builds, Insight is 5 flipped build screens wide, weighs 7,800tons and is totally flat topped, being a single stage aircraft carrier to orbit. It could barely lift its own weight, didn't break the sound barrier until it was 11km up and took over 4,000m/s of Dv to get it to LEO, but it still got there, drag and everything.
Ok. I am partially convinced.
I used to do what you said and I incorporated most of your tips in my design. There are only 2 possible outcomes:
I used to do what you said and I incorporated most of your tips in my design. There are only 2 possible outcomes:
- Giant, heavy rockets to do a simple mission. Have you realized that most winners of this challenge did not resume game, that's why they won, you and me did not.
- Using expensive engines, lots of aerodynamic parts, and lots of fuel that will fill 75% of the screen and end up doubling the cost of production if currency exists in this game.
Horus Lupercal
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They don't have to be enormous. I just gave those multi-kiloton rockets as an example.
Which is very true. The flat top entries aren't LEO capable under re-set conditions. I know this from doing the Jupiter challenge, neither mine nor Antons rockets will reach LEO in realistic terms, but only one of us knows that (and he's just created a 'smallest rocket to Mars' video', which is his Jupiter rocket with a smaller first stage tank. That's not LEO compliant either). I've not checked, but my money is actually on @TtTOtWs build being the smallest to orbit legally, although an engine swap could make bring the mass down again.
Depends on your payload. An efficient design in SFS has a ratio of 3 tons of rocket for every 1 ton of payload on top. I've not managed to break that ratio without ion engines, but that still means a very respectable 100t payload for a 400t on the pad launch mass.
Which is very true. The flat top entries aren't LEO capable under re-set conditions. I know this from doing the Jupiter challenge, neither mine nor Antons rockets will reach LEO in realistic terms, but only one of us knows that (and he's just created a 'smallest rocket to Mars' video', which is his Jupiter rocket with a smaller first stage tank. That's not LEO compliant either). I've not checked, but my money is actually on @TtTOtWs build being the smallest to orbit legally, although an engine swap could make bring the mass down again.
Depends on your payload. An efficient design in SFS has a ratio of 3 tons of rocket for every 1 ton of payload on top. I've not managed to break that ratio without ion engines, but that still means a very respectable 100t payload for a 400t on the pad launch mass.
Horus Lupercal TtTOtW SEE! I TOLD YOU RESUMING IS A BAD IDEA. Ok he didn't have a nosecone but even with a nosecone:
Still didn't make it.
My interplanetary rockets are 200-300t depending on the mission. My heavy lift ones are also 230-330t. And small satellies are 95-200t depending on destination.
With drag enabled, those numbers will increase by a factor of 1.5 and price by a factor of 2. I don't want that.
Still didn't make it.
My interplanetary rockets are 200-300t depending on the mission. My heavy lift ones are also 230-330t. And small satellies are 95-200t depending on destination.
With drag enabled, those numbers will increase by a factor of 1.5 and price by a factor of 2. I don't want that.
Sending a rocket to orbit without aerodynamic drag is certainly easier, but it's basically cheating. That's why the competitions require aero to be on, by restarting the game.
Now, in terms of lightest spacecraft WITHOUT aero on...
This fuel tank is halfway between the smallest and "standard" fuel tank size.
Nearly there...
Out of fuel! And thus ends hope. But lo, perhaps we employ the second stage at this time?
My second stage has a dv of over 400!
Look at that nice, fat orbit. In LEO with a launch mass of 11.3 tonnes, but no aero resistance.
Personally, I don't think all competitions require aero drag on, but you just have to consider the results separately. Smallest launch vehicle to orbit with drag, smallest without.
Now, in terms of lightest spacecraft WITHOUT aero on...
This fuel tank is halfway between the smallest and "standard" fuel tank size.
Nearly there...
Out of fuel! And thus ends hope. But lo, perhaps we employ the second stage at this time?
My second stage has a dv of over 400!
Look at that nice, fat orbit. In LEO with a launch mass of 11.3 tonnes, but no aero resistance.
Personally, I don't think all competitions require aero drag on, but you just have to consider the results separately. Smallest launch vehicle to orbit with drag, smallest without.
Horus Lupercal
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But the math said...
Ok. I gave it another try.
An 11 tonne SSTO. Aero drag is off.
I launched with a very low angle. Since aero drag is off, the main waste is gravitational drag. Gravity drag is 0 only when burning horizontally compared to gravity, so a low angle is better. Low angle means high velocity in dense atmosphere, but aero drag is off.
Got to orbit and even had extra fuel!
I think that, with Aero off, this 11 tonne design is the lightest and smallest which can possibly reach orbit.
Ok. I gave it another try.
An 11 tonne SSTO. Aero drag is off.
I launched with a very low angle. Since aero drag is off, the main waste is gravitational drag. Gravity drag is 0 only when burning horizontally compared to gravity, so a low angle is better. Low angle means high velocity in dense atmosphere, but aero drag is off.
Got to orbit and even had extra fuel!
I think that, with Aero off, this 11 tonne design is the lightest and smallest which can possibly reach orbit.
