Consider this: Titan is just a bunch of Methalox waiting to be processed!

[zackhere]

Let's cut to the chase. Titan has liquid Methane lakes on the surface, and water underground.

Methalox is a shortened name for Methane-Oxygen Fuel.

If we take Methane from the lakes, Water from underground, then we have the ingredients for Methalox.

There's a process called Electrolysis. It's where you run Electricity through Water, and the Oxygen splits from the Hydrogen.

Oxygen, though a gas atom at room temperature, can become liquid when cooled. Titan is really cold. If we bring it to the surface, then cool it down a bit more (~15 degrees Celsius) then it becomes liquid.

Methane plus Liquid Oxygen equals rocket fuel.

Plus, Liquid Oxygen isn't just used for Methalox. It's the most common propellant for rockets. Though not all rockets use Methane fuel, Liquid Oxygen can still be used for Refined Kerosene (RP-1) rockets.

In conclusion, I'm bored and need to stop planning out theoretical missions that make my brain happy because it's probably not happening in my lifetime.

Well, that's my two cents.
-Coach West, Elyria Robotics (fyi not me)

 

[zackhere]

me when

 

[zackhere]

me when

I will say that this could either work or fail miserably. I'm no professional, but it sounded good and I don't know where this is going so I'm going to stop writing now.

 

[Orion]

and water underground

Well, the moon is composed of a lot of ice.

But easy ISRU isn't the only thing going for Titan, though. Consider:

1. It has a thick atmosphere, so landing is really easy
2. Flight is extremely simple on Titan, not considering the -179°C temperatures.
3. Speaking of which, Titan has a surface pressure of 1.45 Atmospheres and a surface temperature of -179°C, which means humans could potentially survive on the surface with little more than and oxygen tank and some very warm clothing. Plus, lugging around the oxygen tank wouldn't even be that hard with the 0.14 gees of surface gravity.
4. Titan's thick atmosphere would help considerably in lessening the radiation experienced on the surface.

I would even argue it's better for human colonization than Mars.

 

[zackhere]

Well, the moon is composed of a lot of ice.

But easy ISRU isn't the only thing going for Titan, though. Consider:

1. It has a thick atmosphere, so landing is really easy
2. Flight is extremely simple on Titan, not considering the -179°C temperatures.
3. Speaking of which, Titan has a surface pressure of 1.45 Atmospheres and a surface temperature of -179°C, which means humans could potentially survive on the surface with little more than and oxygen tank and some very warm clothing. Plus, lugging around the oxygen tank wouldn't even be that hard with the 0.14 gees of surface gravity.
4. Titan's thick atmosphere would help considerably in lessening the radiation experienced on the surface.

I would even argue it's better for human colonization than Mars.

It's just a colder, harder-to-access, Antarctica! Imagine the energy we could process! If we take some of that oxygen and use it for Methane/Ethane power plants, we can have more energy output than every Corn Methane plant on Earth!

 

[Orion]

It's just a colder, harder-to-access, Antarctica! Imagine the energy we could process! If we take some of that oxygen and use it for Methane/Ethane power plants, we can have more energy output than every Corn Methane plant on Earth!

For a colony, ISRU for power generation wouldn't be worth it IMO. Just plop a nuclear reactor down and cool it with the -179°C air.

 

[zackhere]

For a colony, ISRU for power generation wouldn't be worth it IMO. Just plop a nuclear reactor down and cool it with the -179°C air.

I hadn't really considered that, even though multiple space agencies are planning on constructing nuclear plants on the moon -_-

 

[UN Cosmo Navy]

I hadn't really considered that, even though multiple space agencies are planning on constructing nuclear plants on the moon -_-

I would say the best thing to do on the moon is radio telescope in a crater or some mining/refueling base

 

[Orion]

I would say the best thing to do on the moon is radio telescope in a crater or some mining/refueling base

That's assuming there's something to use for fuel on the moon. Otherwise we might as well skip it entirely.

 

[Lemniscate Biscuit]

Let's cut to the chase. Titan has liquid Methane lakes on the surface, and water underground.

Methalox is a shortened name for Methane-Oxygen Fuel.

If we take Methane from the lakes, Water from underground, then we have the ingredients for Methalox.

There's a process called Electrolysis. It's where you run Electricity through Water, and the Oxygen splits from the Hydrogen.

Oxygen, though a gas atom at room temperature, can become liquid when cooled. Titan is really cold. If we bring it to the surface, then cool it down a bit more (~15 degrees Celsius) then it becomes liquid.

Methane plus Liquid Oxygen equals rocket fuel.

Plus, Liquid Oxygen isn't just used for Methalox. It's the most common propellant for rockets. Though not all rockets use Methane fuel, Liquid Oxygen can still be used for Refined Kerosene (RP-1) rockets.

In conclusion, I'm bored and need to stop planning out theoretical missions that make my brain happy because it's probably not happening in my lifetime.

Well, that's my two cents.
-Coach West, Elyria Robotics (fyi not me)

Besides, methalox is kinda crappy. It can be compared to other hydrocarbon fuels like RP-1, Kerolox or Syntin. Using a methane NTR could be a possibility, but I haven't seen anyone bring up a methane NTR. Also, there is a much better rocket fuel already there. Hydrolox is already makeable with electrolysis like you said. Why go the extra mile to get methane when you can make a much higher performing rocket fuel with less* steps.

 

[Orion]

methalox is kinda crappy

Not really, because you can pick it up off the ground with a hose.

It can be compared to other hydrocarbon fuels like RP-1, Kerolox or Syntin

No, because you can't pick those up off the ground with a hose. There's a reason rockets on Earth use RP-1, and that is simplicity.

Using a methane NTR could be a possibility, but I haven't seen anyone bring up a methane NTR.

The biggest reason nobody talks about Methane NTRs is they're practically useless performance wise. You're genuinely better off with a decent hydrolox engine in terms of performance.

Why go the extra mile to get methane when you can make a much higher performing rocket fuel with less* steps.

IDK, generating hydrogen and oxygen from electrolysis would probably be harder than just oxygen. I'm not knowledgeable on that subject though.

 

[zackhere]

This comment was "deleted" (but not really)

 

[zackhere]

Besides, methalox is kinda crappy. It can be compared to other hydrocarbon fuels like RP-1, Kerolox or Syntin. Using a methane NTR could be a possibility, but I haven't seen anyone bring up a methane NTR. Also, there is a much better rocket fuel already there. Hydrolox is already makeable with electrolysis like you said. Why go the extra mile to get methane when you can make a much higher performing rocket fuel with less* steps.

One- Methalox is better for high-thrust engines.

Two- RP-1 is Kerolox.

 

[Lemniscate Biscuit]

Two- RP-1 is Kerolox.

Kerosene is a more refined aircraft fuel. RP-1 is a more refined kerosene. Syntin is a more refined RP-1 (or RG-1 if you are soviet).

One- Methalox is better for high-thrust engines.

When did Titan ever need a high-thrust engine. You can probably fly with RCS thrusters. Edit: Explain the RS-25 and the RS-68

Not really, because you can pick it up off the ground with a hose.

In terms of deep space. The Methane NTR is really bad. Using a vac raptor in deep space wouldn't be amazing nor optimal. Besides, what are you doing with a BE-4 engine on Titan?

IDK, generating hydrogen and oxygen from electrolysis would probably be harder than just oxygen. I'm not knowledgeable on that subject though.

I sorta studied ISRU for CPOE-Enceladus. Honestly, condensing the hydrogen gas would only need a little more energy from a reactor and besides, you have to turn the oxygen into a liquid anyway. The Space Shuttle used Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel cells for power. Both Hydrogen and Oxygen can be made with electrolysis as zackhere said. These fuel cells created power and a byproduct called drinking water. Winner winner chicken dinner? They are kinda trash compared to just flying in a tokamak though.

 

[zackhere]

Kerosene is a more refined aircraft fuel. RP-1 is a more refined kerosene. Syntin is a more refined RP-1 (or RG-1 if you are soviet).


When did Titan ever need a high-thrust engine. You can probably fly with RCS thrusters. Edit: Explain the RS-25 and the RS-68


In terms of deep space. The Methane NTR is really bad. Using a vac raptor in deep space wouldn't be amazing nor optimal. Besides, what are you doing with a BE-4 engine on Titan?


I sorta studied ISRU for CPOE-Enceladus. Honestly, condensing the hydrogen gas would only need a little more energy from a reactor and besides, you have to turn the oxygen into a liquid anyway. The Space Shuttle used Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel cells for power. Both Hydrogen and Oxygen can be made with electrolysis as zackhere said. These fuel cells created power and a byproduct called drinking water. Winner winner chicken dinner? They are kinda trash compared to just flying in a tokamak though.

I know this thread is sorta dead, but a large downside to Hydrolox is how [insert antonym of dense] it is. If we were to use electromagnetic catapults and/or skyhooks for transportation from Earth, it would be feasible to produce Methalox for rockets and use the Hydrogen for automobiles and electricity production on Earth. We get Rocket Fuel, a cheap alternative for Gasoline (Extra points for using water on Enceladus!), and lower emissions of Greenhouse Gases from Oil and Coal power plants. In the end, it pays off.

 

[Lemniscate Biscuit]

a large downside to Hydrolox is how [insert antonym of dense] it is.

Then use Slush LH2/LOx.

If we were to use electromagnetic catapults and/or skyhooks for transportation from Earth

Why? Skyhooks deorbit themselves and are just hard to maintain. Electromagnetic catapults. Like how much electricity do you want to eat up.

it would be feasible to produce Methalox for rockets and use the Hydrogen for automobiles

There are probably better uses for hydrogen like upper stages of rockets. Methane is good, but not great. Especially for high energy upper stages like Centaur or EUS. They need more "umph" than, say, a methane centaur. Also consider electric vehicles.

We get Rocket Fuel, a cheap alternative for Gasoline

Yes, methane is very cheap. No one is using gasoline for their rockets. It's either kerosene, methane, propane or RP-1. Also actively scratching my head on how a car would use methane as a fuel.

(Extra points for using water on Enceladus!)

Huh? Just use Earth or Moon water.

lower emissions of Greenhouse Gases from Oil and Coal power plants. In the end, it pays off.

Or just not use those in the first place.

 

[zackhere]

Then use Slush LH2/LOx.

Why? Skyhooks deorbit themselves and are just hard to maintain. Electromagnetic catapults. Like how much electricity do you want to eat up.

There are probably better uses for hydrogen like upper stages of rockets. Methane is good, but not great. Especially for high energy upper stages like Centaur or EUS. They need more "umph" than, say, a methane centaur. Also consider electric vehicles.

Yes, methane is very cheap. No one is using gasoline for their rockets. It's either kerosene, methane, propane or RP-1. Also actively scratching my head on how a car would use methane as a fuel.

Huh? Just use Earth or Moon water.

Or just not use those in the first place.

I think you were confused on the bit where I said "We get rocket fuel, a cheap alternative to gasoline,...". I meant that we get Methane (Rocket fuel) and an alternative to gasoline (Hydrogen). Hydrogen can be used to power electric cars.

On the argument we can just "stop" using fossil fuels, no company is going to stop their income. They'll just tell lies about "lowest carbon emissions on the planet" and "shut the hell up you whiny bitch and pay for electricity from fossil fuels that make up 85% of yearly produced electricity".

 

[Lemniscate Biscuit]

Hydrogen can be used to power electric cars.

Is it good and is it practical. Are all politicians and all 8 billion people on Earth gonna support that.