Rework of the Frontier Challenges

What challenges will replace the replica thing?

  • Voyager Quest

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • 4k and beyond

    Votes: 4 20.0%
  • Icarus Dive

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Salyut-Venus

    Votes: 4 20.0%

  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .

Blazer Ayanami

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#1
Alright, so we’ve noticing that some people get stuck in the Frontier challenges, specifically the third one: the replica. I want to leave very clear that this is NOT Marmilo ‘s fault. He is doing his job just right. Is the challenge’s itself.

So we’ve decided to move the replica challenge and it’s badge (Copycat) to Team Hawk for two main reasons: one is because the replica is much harder than the other Frontier missions, and two because replicating things is not a mandatory skill in this game. You can be very good in SFS without making a single replica. By moving it to Hawk, we pretend to make it “non-mandatory”.

So, that leaves us with a gap on Frontier. What do we do for the third Frontier challenge? We moderators have prepared some propositions for that: a few deltaV and efficiency challenges. DeltaV and efficiency are two concepts that every player should know.

You guys will vote in the poll above which scenario do you think it is the best for the third Frontier mission, the one that will replace the replica thing. The options are:

Voyager Quest challenge: One of the possible deltaV challenges. The probe blueprint will be supplied by us, it won’t be too heavy, and the objective is to launch it towards interstellar space all the way from LEO, no gravity assists. Just LEO to Proxima Centauri.

4000 m/s challenge: Well, the objective here is to give 4000 m/s of a push to a payload supplied by us. The payload starts in LEO obviously.

Icarus Dive challenge: similar to the interstellar probe but in reverse, the objective is to crash the probe on the Sun. Same conditions, payload supplied, no gravity assists allowed. All the way from LEO to the Sun.

Salyut-Venus challenge: the objective here is to send a supplied single launch space station to Low Venus Orbit, specifically to a 100 x 100 km orbit with accepted margins of 5 km. Start point on the launchpad. Venus aerobrake not allowed.

In 7 days we will see the results of the poll and we’ll finish the challenge design according to your choice. Choose wisely guys:)
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#2
Time to answer questions!

Q. Does this means I have to do Frontier again?
A. No, if you already have Frontier, you will keep it.

Any other questions, ask below!
 

Timmy

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#3
Why are gravity assists not alowed? Don't they require skill to perform correctly? Which would show good knowledge of orbital mechanics. You can always add more boosters to get more DeltaV (obviously its not that simple), but making your rocket as efficient as possible is different and requires skill, planning and practice. Also I think that the efficiency challenges should be easier for base game players because they don't have ion engines or Frontier engines.
 

4KidsOneCamera

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#4
Why are gravity assists not alowed? Don't they require skill to perform correctly? Which would show good knowledge of orbital mechanics. You can always add more boosters to get more DeltaV (obviously its not that simple), but making your rocket as efficient as possible is different and requires skill, planning and practice. Also I think that the efficiency challenges should be easier for base game players because they don't have ion engines or Frontier engines.
Honestly, I agree with this sentiment. Demonstrating advanced knowledge of orbital mechanics, and how to use them to your advantage is a valuable skill to have. Plus, not being able to use assists was never brought up in the proposal post the other day Blazer.
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#5
Why are gravity assists not alowed? Don't they require skill to perform correctly? Which would show good knowledge of orbital mechanics.
Honestly, I agree with this sentiment. Demonstrating advanced knowledge of orbital mechanics, and how to use them to your advantage is a valuable skill to have.
Because they would kill the purpose of these challenges. :rolleyes:. Also for these main reasons:

1. These are deltaV challenges, these are efficiency challenges, so what’s the point on allowing measures that reduce deltaV costs? That reminds me of the ‘100 tons + ancillaries’ Mercury challenge we were talking several days ago. If you allow ‘ancillaries’ what is the point of the 100 tons?

2. We already have a challenge to see if you can use gravity assists: the Mercury mission. The Mercury mission is specifically designed so it can’t be completed without gravity assists. Allowing gravity assists on this one would make the Mercury challenge useless, pointless. I mean, think about it: if you allow gravity assists here, what is the point of the Mercury challenge? To land on a third of Earth’s gravity? spacex fangirls have been doing that since before they can even get to the moon. So if you allow gravity assists here, you also have to rework/delete the Mercury challenge.

3. If you allow gravity assist on these challenges you make all 4 of them pointless. You reduce them to ‘get to Venus’. I mean think about it, if you allow gravity assists then for starters the 4K challenge is stupid. 4K relative to what? To Earth? To the Sun? To Venus? To Jupiter? If you allow gravity assists then both the Sun dive and the interstellar challenge are just ‘get to Venus’. There is one thing called VEEGA that says, that once you are on Venus, you are on Jupiter, and once you are on Jupiter you are on Proxima Centauri, or the Sun. And what is even the point of gravity assists when the challenge is precisely ‘get to Venus’? (fourth mission: Salyut-Venus).

but making your rocket as efficient as possible is different and requires skill, planning and practice.
Exactly. THAT is the purpose of these challenges: to make an efficient craft. The challenge is NOt space navigation, we already have a challenge for that. The challenge is not ‘get to other planet’, we already have three challenges for that. The challenge is to prove that you have a minimal idea of what deltaV and efficiency are.
You can always add more boosters to get more DeltaV (obviously its not that simple).
There you go.

There’s your answer, right in your own post.


“OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE”.
Demonstrating advanced knowledge of orbital mechanics, and how to use them to your advantage is a valuable skill to have.
It is.

Precisely why we have the Mercury mission, and the Jovian mission.

You didn’t forget about them, didn’t you?

Plus, not being able to use assists was never brought up in the proposal post the other day Blazer.
No, it wasn’t.

Because obviously, if you want to set a challenge, you don’t brought up something that would kill your own challenge.

Plus, we did say it was going to be a deltaV challenge, didn’t we? And if you are going to make a deltaV challenge, what is the point of allowing deltaV-saving measures?
 

4KidsOneCamera

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#6
Because they would kill the purpose of these challenges. :rolleyes:. Also for these main reasons:

1. These are deltaV challenges, these are efficiency challenges, so what’s the point on allowing measures that reduce deltaV costs? That reminds me of the ‘100 tons + ancillaries’ Mercury challenge we were talking several days ago. If you allow ‘ancillaries’ what is the point of the 100 tons?

2. We already have a challenge to see if you can use gravity assists: the Mercury mission. The Mercury mission is specifically designed so it can’t be completed without gravity assists. Allowing gravity assists on this one would make the Mercury challenge useless, pointless. I mean, think about it: if you allow gravity assists here, what is the point of the Mercury challenge? To land on a third of Earth’s gravity? spacex fangirls have been doing that since before they can even get to the moon. So if you allow gravity assists here, you also have to rework/delete the Mercury challenge.

3. If you allow gravity assist on these challenges you make all 4 of them pointless. You reduce them to ‘get to Venus’. I mean think about it, if you allow gravity assists then for starters the 4K challenge is stupid. 4K relative to what? To Earth? To the Sun? To Venus? To Jupiter? If you allow gravity assists then both the Sun dive and the interstellar challenge are just ‘get to Venus’. There is one thing called VEEGA that says, that once you are on Venus, you are on Jupiter, and once you are on Jupiter you are on Proxima Centauri, or the Sun. And what is even the point of gravity assists when the challenge is precisely ‘get to Venus’? (fourth mission: Salyut-Venus).


Exactly. THAT is the purpose of these challenges: to make an efficient craft. The challenge is NOt space navigation, we already have a challenge for that. The challenge is not ‘get to other planet’, we already have three challenges for that. The challenge is to prove that you have a minimal idea of what deltaV and efficiency are.

There you go.

There’s your answer, right in your own post.


“OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE”.

It is.

Precisely why we have the Mercury mission, and the Jovian mission.

You didn’t forget about them, didn’t you?


No, it wasn’t.

Because obviously, if you want to set a challenge, you don’t brought up something that would kill your own challenge.

Plus, we did say it was going to be a deltaV challenge, didn’t we? And if you are going to make a deltaV challenge, what is the point of allowing deltaV-saving measures?
Fair points. I think there are ways in which an efficiency challenge can still work without assists, but I’d be interested in figuring out more of the specifics and limitations that would be imposed on each challenge to ensure that someone doesn’t just throw together a huge but inefficient rocket, or just slap on a bunch of ions to get the job done. Because in my eyes, those don’t represent someone’s knowledge of how to build efficiently, they represent how to disregard efficiency entirely. All of the proposed examples (in their current state with the info presented above) represent something where you could disregard efficiency, which is against the point of the challenge itself.
 

AstronautAdam

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#7
Proxima Centauri, really guys?! I dont see any Proxima Centauri in default world. And what mean give 4000m/s push? Accelerate to 4000m/s or add 4000m/s to actual speed? And what to do if I have completed replica but it isnt approved, just waiting for this with no comment from judge or second one? Guy please more details. And Jovian moons are moons of Jupiter? I dont know because in slovak is Jupiter and Jupiterové. So no this strange changes in name. Thanks for reply
 

James Brown

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#8
Proxima Centauri, really guys?! I dont see any Proxima Centauri in default world. And what mean give 4000m/s push? Accelerate to 4000m/s or add 4000m/s to actual speed? And what to do if I have completed replica but it isnt approved, just waiting for this with no comment from judge or second one? Guy please more details. And Jovian moons are moons of Jupiter? I dont know because in slovak is Jupiter and Jupiterové. So no this strange changes in name. Thanks for reply
So for the Proxima Centauri what planet pack are we using?
 

AstronautAdam

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#9
So, if I know good in default and IRIS pack by Altair, isnt Some thingy named Proxima Centauri
 

Mooncrasher

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#10
Proxima Centauri, really guys?! I dont see any Proxima Centauri in default world.
You don't need to get to Proxima Centauri, that would lock out base game players from doing Team Frontier.
It's just saying that you need to escape the solar system. So that your spacecraft will never return, like the challenge's namesake, the voyager probes.

And what mean give 4000m/s push? Accelerate to 4000m/s or add 4000m/s to actual speed?
Push = add 4000 m/s deltaV

And what to do if I have completed replica but it isnt approved, just waiting for this with no comment from judge or second one?
The frontier challenge RIGHT NOW is still replica.

The new challenge will not be added for at least a week, until the poll closes. And actually even longer than that, because the bp or quicksave would still need to be designed.

So unless you wait for weeks, the challenge is still replica. And the judges will get to your replica when they can.

And Jovian moons are moons of Jupiter?
Yes!:)

So for the Proxima Centauri what planet pack are we using?
Default planet pack, you are not actually going to Proxima Centauri. Just yeeting yourself to interstellar like the Voyager probes.

So, if I know good in default and IRIS pack by Altair, isnt Some thingy named Proxima Centauri
There is no Proxima Centauri in default pack or IRIS. You are not actually going to Proxima Centauri, simply interstellar.
 
T

The Dark in the Light

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#11
I would like to see the Voyager Quest the replacing challenge. That would be quite fun to do, as well as the Icarus Dive challenge. Hell, I'd recommend both of them being implemented.
 

Altaïr

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#12
Proxima Centauri, really guys?
There's no actual need of a Proxima Centauri body, all we ask for this challenge is to send a probe on an interstellar trajectory, or an escape trajectory if you prefer.

Blazer simply mentioned Proxima Centauri as a symbol.

Also I think that the efficiency challenges should be easier for base game players because they don't have ion engines or Frontier engines.
Honestly most of them are doable with base game. Base game players don't have the Frontier, but the Valiant is a very good engine too. And it's frankly doable without ion engines. The Icarus dive would probably be a bit harder though.

Also, I'm a bit surprised about the "no gravity assist" rule. They are not mandatory of course, but this is not the easier way to do it in my opinion, this requires some skills and practice. Forbidding ion engines would make more sense to me, as they are the most obvious delta-V killer.
 

Nagini

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#13
Ha the moment after I finish Team Frontier they change the rules so that now I have finished one Team Hawk challenge. :p
 

bobbblair123

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#14
I noticed ion use, or not isn't mentioned yet
 

Marmilo

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#15
I'm a bit surprised about the "no gravity assist" rule. They are not mandatory of course, but this is not the easier way to do it in my opinion, this requires some skills and practice. Forbidding ion engines would make more sense to me, as they are the most obvious delta-V killer.
I agree.
 

Timmy

Registered
#16
so what’s the point on allowing measures that reduce deltaV costs
Isn't that called being efficient? Isn't this an efficiency challenge?
So if you allow gravity assists here, you also have to rework/delete the Mercury challenge.
Fair point there
3. If you allow gravity assist on these challenges you make all 4 of them pointless. You reduce them to ‘get to Venus’. I mean think about it, if you allow gravity assists then for starters the 4K challenge is stupid. 4K relative to what? To Earth? To the Sun? To Venus? To Jupiter? If you allow gravity assists then both the Sun dive and the interstellar challenge are just ‘get to Venus’. There is one thing called VEEGA that says, that once you are on Venus, you are on Jupiter, and once you are on Jupiter you are on Proxima Centauri, or the Sun. And what is even the point of gravity assists when the challenge is precisely ‘get to Venus’? (fourth mission: Salyut-Venus).
Well then you can introduce another limiting factor, like launch mass.
to make an efficient craft.
To make an efficient craft just basically means don't use Hawk or Titan engines in space. That pretty much it. An efficient space voyage is different. So the challene is to make an efficient craft then right? In that case, I agree.
“OBVIOUSLY ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE”.
By that I meant you can't just pile on fuel and engines, you need to find a good ratio of fuel to engine, its not that hard to do that.
Because obviously, if you want to set a challenge, you don’t brought up something that would kill your own challenge.
Same reasons scientists find all the ways to disprove their theory before saying its correct.
Fair points. I think there are ways in which an efficiency challenge can still work without assists, but I’d be interested in figuring out more of the specifics and limitations that would be imposed on each challenge to ensure that someone doesn’t just throw together a huge but inefficient rocket, or just slap on a bunch of ions to get the job done. Because in my eyes, those don’t represent someone’s knowledge of how to build efficiently, they represent how to disregard efficiency entirely. All of the proposed examples (in their current state with the info presented above) represent something where you could disregard efficiency, which is against the point of the challenge itself.
agreed.
 

Marmilo

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#17
To make an efficient craft just basically means don't use Hawk or Titan engines in space. That pretty much it. An efficient space voyage is different. So the challene is to make an efficient craft then right? In that case, I agree.
No. Good stage proportions, cutting dry mass, using the oberth effect to it's full potential, right Twr. And quite a bit more.
 

Timmy

Registered
#20
Ok, I see the point of no gravity assists now
but I’d be interested in figuring out more of the specifics and limitations that would be imposed on each challenge to ensure that someone doesn’t just throw together a huge but inefficient rocket, or just slap on a bunch of ions to get the job done
 

Horus Lupercal

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#21
Voyager Quest challenge: One of the possible deltaV challenges. The probe blueprint will be supplied by us, it won’t be too heavy, and the objective is to launch it towards interstellar space all the way from LEO, no gravity assists. Just LEO to Proxima Centauri.

4000 m/s challenge: Well, the objective here is to give 4000 m/s of a push to a payload supplied by us. The payload starts in LEO obviously.
Same challenge. If you can punt 4km/s into LEO then you're going extra-solar. This would need managing as well location wise. Just leaving Earths SOI increases your indicated speed from roughly 2km/s to around 6km/s. However, accelerating 4000m/s inside an SOI is going to limit you TWRwise cos there'll come a point where your orbit is outside of Earths SOI and you can't come around again.
So it'll have to be worked out mathematically, especially as different locations will have different oberth advantages.


Icarus Dive challenge: similar to the interstellar probe but in reverse, the objective is to crash the probe on the Sun. Same conditions, payload supplied, no gravity assists allowed. All the way from LEO to the Sun.
Don't think this'll be that hard. Especially just throwing yourself into the Sun.


Salyut-Venus challenge: the objective here is to send a supplied single launch space station to Low Venus Orbit, specifically to a 100 x 100 km orbit with accepted margins of 5 km. Start point on the launchpad. Venus aerobrake not allowed.

This one looks the most interesting. Hopefully just the station is supplied, not the launch system. However, depending on the definition of 'single launch', non-DLC players are going to be at a huge disadvantage with how much rocket they can use if they're not allowed multi-launches to get sufficient ΔV into orbit to transfer into LVO.


Why are gravity assists not alowed?
Because gravity assists are a crutch, heavily leaned on. Same with ions. A good efficiency test hasn't been done already.


Also I think that the efficiency challenges should be easier for base game players because they don't have ion engines or Frontier engines.
Just putting this out there, the non DLC engines are better than the DLC engines. If you know what you're doing.


but I’d be interested in figuring out more of the specifics and limitations that would be imposed on each challenge to ensure that someone doesn’t just throw together a huge but inefficient rocket, or just slap on a bunch of ions to get the job done
I think the ΔV budget required should be increased so you can't do that single stage. Make the challenge so it needs planning and staging to be completed.


Forbidding ion engines would make more sense to me, as they are the most obvious delta-V killer.
Yes. No ions. Ever.
 

The epic chicken

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#22
Alright, so we’ve noticing that some people get stuck in the Frontier challenges, specifically the third one: the replica. I want to leave very clear that this is NOT Marmilo ‘s fault. He is doing his job just right. Is the challenge’s itself.

So we’ve decided to move the replica challenge and it’s badge (Copycat) to Team Hawk for two main reasons: one is because the replica is much harder than the other Frontier missions, and two because replicating things is not a mandatory skill in this game. You can be very good in SFS without making a single replica. By moving it to Hawk, we pretend to make it “non-mandatory”.

So, that leaves us with a gap on Frontier. What do we do for the third Frontier challenge? We moderators have prepared some propositions for that: a few deltaV and efficiency challenges. DeltaV and efficiency are two concepts that every player should know.

You guys will vote in the poll above which scenario do you think it is the best for the third Frontier mission, the one that will replace the replica thing. The options are:

Voyager Quest challenge: One of the possible deltaV challenges. The probe blueprint will be supplied by us, it won’t be too heavy, and the objective is to launch it towards interstellar space all the way from LEO, no gravity assists. Just LEO to Proxima Centauri.

4000 m/s challenge: Well, the objective here is to give 4000 m/s of a push to a payload supplied by us. The payload starts in LEO obviously.

Icarus Dive challenge: similar to the interstellar probe but in reverse, the objective is to crash the probe on the Sun. Same conditions, payload supplied, no gravity assists allowed. All the way from LEO to the Sun.

Salyut-Venus challenge: the objective here is to send a supplied single launch space station to Low Venus Orbit, specifically to a 100 x 100 km orbit with accepted margins of 5 km. Start point on the launchpad. Venus aerobrake not allowed.

In 7 days we will see the results of the poll and we’ll finish the challenge design according to your choice. Choose wisely guys:)
but i already made a replica :(
can it be accepted before the change
cause i really don't it to go to waste
as i spent 2 hours on it
 

Horus Lupercal

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#23
but i already made a replica :(
can it be accepted before the change
cause i really don't it to go to waste
as i spent 2 hours on it
Oh 2 whole hours.

Also, it's not going to render the replica pointless. if you read the top paragraph, you just get a different coloured badge for it and you'll get it slightly later.
 

Altaïr

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#24
but i already made a replica :(
can it be accepted before the change
cause i really don't it to go to waste
as i spent 2 hours on it
This challenge will be simply moved to team Hawk, it won't be removed, so your progress is not lost. You still have to complete the other challenges anyway.
 

Altaïr

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#25
4000 m/s challenge: Well, the objective here is to give 4000 m/s of a push to a payload supplied by us. The payload starts in LEO obviously.
I also have a concern about this one. What is the purpose:
  • To transfer 4000 m/s of delta-V to the payload?
  • Or to reach 4000 m/s?
The second option is different because you already have an initial speed of 1655 m/s in LEO. There's also a problem, the speed vary with altitude, so how do we evaluate that the objective has been met? Maybe we should set a clear rule for this one, such as "Have a speed of 4000 m/s at Moon level" for example.