Rework of the Frontier Challenges

[Pink]

but i already made a replica
can it be accepted before the change
cause i really don't it to go to waste
as i spent 2 hours on it

See:

The frontier challenge RIGHT NOW is still replica.

The new challenge will not be added for at least a week, until the poll closes. And actually even longer than that, because the bp or quicksave would still need to be designed.

so you have lots of time to get your replica accepted for team frontier, if that's what you want.

 

[bobbblair123]

I also have a concern about this one. What is the purpose:

• To transfer 4000 m/s of delta-V to the payload?
• Or to reach 4000 m/s?

The second option is different because you already have an initial speed of 1655 m/s in LEO. There's also a problem, the speed vary with altitude, so how do we evaluate that the objective has been met? Maybe we should set a clear rule for this one, such as "Have a speed of 4000 m/s at Moon level" for example.

1. Any orbit any speed. It just needs to be sped up by 4000 m/s. The difficulty being in the starting orbit and mass of the object. Then it's a matter of getting sufficient fuel to it in x number of launches or
2. Launching a specific mass to 4000 m/s in a single launch?

 

[Blazer Ayanami]

Guys, guys, guys,

There is no Proxima Centauri. I only said “reach Proxima Centauri” as a symbol of going interstellar. The whole point of the Voyager Quest Challenge is simply to reach Sun escape velocity, and that can be done in base game, in any version, and any OS.

Also,

Isn't that called being efficient? Isn't this an efficiency challenge?

Yes, but we’re not talking about the same type of efficiency. I am talking about efficient construction, you are talking about efficient navigation.

They are not the same.

To make an efficient craft just basically means don't use Hawk or Titan engines in space. That pretty much it. An efficient space voyage is different. So the challene is to make an efficient craft then right? In that case, I agree

By that I meant you can't just pile on fuel and engines, you need to find a good ratio of fuel to engine, its not that hard to do that.

There you go. Once again you proving yourself wrong in two paragraphs right next to each other.

>In the first one you say efficient crafts are just not use Titan and Hawk.
>In the second you deny that and you say that efficient crafts aren’t just made out of a bunch of fuel tanks and engines.

By my experience in this game, if you just throw some fuel and engines randomly without having any clue on what you are doing, you’re not getting anywhere, or at least you are gonna come up with something massive which then you can’t put into orbit.

And I genuinely know some people that would do just that (stacking a bunch of fuel and a cluster of engines) and struggle to give 4000 m/s of deltaV to a supplied payload. THAT is the purpose of this challenge: to prove that you have a minimal idea on how to build efficient spacecrafts, not that you can do efficient space navigation. We have other challenges for that, specifically the Mercury challenge.

but I’d be interested in figuring out more of the specifics and limitations that would be imposed on each challenge to ensure that someone doesn’t just throw together a huge but inefficient rocket, or just slap on a bunch of ions to get the job done.

Well, that’s one thing I genuinely forgot to say, and I hope people agrees, but Ion engines aren’t allowed. They definitely would kill the challenge.

As for the details, we’ll obviously discuss them later. For now we are just discussing what type of challenge are we going to make. Later we can design a specific scenario for that challenge and we’ll discuss all the details.

Also, I'm a bit surprised about the "no gravity assist" rule. They are not mandatory of course, but this is not the easier way to do it in my opinion, this requires some skills and practice.

Same as before. You are absolutely 100 hundred percent right. Space navigation does takes time, skill and patience. I’m just saying that we already have OTHER challenges especifically designed for that.

The purpose of this challenge is different and gravity assists as well as Ions and aerobrake would kill it.

Guys, is not like I’m banning gravity assists off the rank-up challenges, or off the forum... I’m just banning them off this specific challenge, because they would kill it, and because we already have other challenges for that.

I also have a concern about this one. What is the purpose:

• To transfer 4000 m/s of delta-V to the payload?.

That’s the one. It all happens in Earth’s SOI.

What we will determine later is if we are going to supply a quicksave with the payload on its initial Low Earth Orbit, and make people dock to it and do the challenge, or we are just going to supply the blueprints for the payload, and people has to do the mission all the way from the launchpad.

Once again, for now we are simply choosing what kind of scenario we are going to set.

Same challenge. If you can punt 4km/s into LEO then you're going extra-solar. This would need managing as well location wise. Just leaving Earths SOI increases your indicated speed from roughly 2km/s to around 6km/s. However, accelerating 4000m/s inside an SOI is going to limit you TWRwise cos there'll come a point where your orbit is outside of Earths SOI and you can't come around again.
So it'll have to be worked out mathematically, especially as different locations will have different oberth advantages.




Don't think this'll be that hard. Especially just throwing yourself into the Sun.





This one looks the most interesting. Hopefully just the station is supplied, not the launch system. However, depending on the definition of 'single launch', non-DLC players are going to be at a huge disadvantage with how much rocket they can use if they're not allowed multi-launches to get sufficient ΔV into orbit to transfer into LVO.




Because gravity assists are a crutch, heavily leaned on. Same with ions. A good efficiency test hasn't been done already.




Just putting this out there, the non DLC engines are better than the DLC engines. If you know what you're doing.




I think the ΔV budget required should be increased so you can't do that single stage. Make the challenge so it needs planning and staging to be completed.




Yes. No ions. Ever.

Horus, your post is too long and I can’t be bothered to edit and quote all of that speech point by point

So, I’ll answer I’ll your points one after the other.

1. All these challenges are roughly the same. What changes is the scenario, payload and the destination. The first three were designed by Altair, the last one is my idea.

2. Yes, all the acceleration takes place inside Earth’s SOI. So you also need to take TWR into account. Otherwise you’ll leave Earth’s SOI before you reach target speed and your challenge won’t be valid.

3. Yes, only the station will be supplied, then you need to design your launch vehicle. The deltaV budget is much less, but you start on the launchpad, so it’s a bit more challenging.

4. No, no Ions, ever. They are OP as fuck, broken as hell, unrealistic as heaven.

 

[Horus Lupercal]

Any orbit any speed. It just needs to be sped up by 4000 m/s

Erm, that's not how orbital mechanics works.

If you're sat at 50km LEO doing say 1655m/s, and throw 4,000m/s of ΔV out of your rocket, your speed won't be 5655m/s.
Why?
Two reasons.
1. The Oberth effect. Your proximity to a large gravity well increases the efficiency of a burn. So for a given ΔV budget, you will get more out of Low Jupiter than you will out of Low Moon and your altitude above the body needs to be the same for everyone as the closer you are, the more efficient it becomes. Not all orbits can be treated equal.

2. Orbital speeds. In an elliptical orbit (which it very much will be doing 5650m/s in LEO), as you move away from the periapsis, your speed decreases until you reach the apoapsis. This will vary depending on how eccentric the orbit is as well. That means that your true speed increase can only be measured at the exact instant you hit the periapsis, as you will always be either accelerating or decelerating either side of that point. And considering how fast you'll be going (i.e., out of the SOI), there's no way of 'coming back around' to measure the speed.

Horus, your post is too long and I can’t be bothered to edit and quote all of that speech point by point

Just nod and agree with everything I say. Makes your life easier...

Yes, all the acceleration takes place inside Earth’s SOI. So you also need to take TWR into account. Otherwise you’ll leave Earth’s SOI before you reach target speed and your challenge won’t be valid.

Problem with that (as pointed out above) whilst you're accelerating, you're losing speed because you're heading out to apoapsis. And depending on how long that takes, you could throw in 4km/s and end up moving at 450m/s...

 

[The epic chicken]

See:

so you have lots of time to get your replica accepted for team frontier, if that's what you want.

I'm finishing it tommorow

 

[Blazer Ayanami]

Problem with that (as pointed out above) whilst you're accelerating, you're losing speed because you're heading out to apoapsis. And depending on how long that takes, you could throw in 4km/s and end up moving at 450m/s...

Correct

Which is why I sad TWR as well as efficiency need to be taken into account. You can’t just put 2000 tons of fuel and a single Frontier engine. That will have much more than 4000 m/s, but is gonna take forever to burn, and as you move to apoapsis, you’ll begin to lose speed, so your total speed might not be 5665 m/s by the time you finish burning.

 

[bobbblair123]

Erm, that's not how orbital mechanics works.

If you're sat at 50km LEO doing say 1655m/s, and throw 4,000m/s of ΔV out of your rocket, your speed won't be 5655m/s.
Why?
Two reasons.
1. The Oberth effect. Your proximity to a large gravity well increases the efficiency of a burn. So for a given ΔV budget, you will get more out of Low Jupiter than you will out of Low Moon and your altitude above the body needs to be the same for everyone as the closer you are, the more efficient it becomes. Not all orbits can be treated equal.

2. Orbital speeds. In an elliptical orbit (which it very much will be doing 5650m/s in LEO), as you move away from the periapsis, your speed decreases until you reach the apoapsis. This will vary depending on how eccentric the orbit is as well. That means that your true speed increase can only be measured at the exact instant you hit the periapsis, as you will always be either accelerating or decelerating either side of that point. And considering how fast you'll be going (i.e., out of the SOI), there's no way of 'coming back around' to measure the speed.




Just nod and agree with everything I say. Makes your life easier...




Problem with that (as pointed out above) whilst you're accelerating, you're losing speed because you're heading out to apoapsis. And depending on how long that takes, you could throw in 4km/s and end up moving at 450m/s...

QUOTE="Horus Lupercal, post: 146445, member: 1991"]Erm, that's not how orbital mechanics works.


You get anything moving 4k+ m/s it's NOT staying inside Earth's SOI. Seems to me this is more about application of x (force) to y (mass) to achieve a (acceleration) rereading your post just to make sure I understand you we're both saying the same thing. To objectively raise an objects velocity 4k m/s it has to be done outside Earth's SOI


Just nod and agree with everything I say. Makes your life easier...

You wished. It might make somebody's life easier. Mine's pretty easy

 

[Marmilo]

Just putting this out there, the non DLC engines are better than the DLC engines. If you know what you're doing.

Except the ion.

 

[AstronautAdam]

Jeez, Marmilo, you are alive???

 

[Blazer Ayanami]

Jeez, Marmilo, you are alive???

No, he’s been dead all the time. He was brought back to life only to write “Except the ion”.

Marmilo, your purpose has ended. You may die again now.

 

[AstronautAdam]

And what replica challenge? Is it for you Šuma Fuk? ( or in language of this forum: You dont do nothing with it?)

 

[Altaïr]

If that can help, I've calculated the delta-V requirements for each challenge (starting from LEO):

• Voyager quest: 1856 m/s
• 4k and beyond: 4000 m/s
• Icarus dive: 4518 m/s
• Salyut-Venus: 1437 m/s, from which up to 696 m/s can be saved through aerobraking

I tried the Icarus dive with only base parts, it's totally doable, I needed only a rocket of 180 tons.

 

[JSP]

Does this mean we have to redo team Frontier

 

[Blazer Ayanami]

Does this mean we have to redo team Frontier

Repeatedly Answered Questions (RAQ)

 

[Gurren Lagann]

If that can help, I've calculated the delta-V requirements for each challenge (starting from LEO):

• Voyager quest: 1856 m/s
• 4k and beyond: 4000 m/s
• Icarus dive: 4518 m/s
• Salyut-Venus: 1437 m/s, from which up to 696 m/s can be saved through aerobraking

I tried the Icarus dive with only base parts, it's totally doable, I needed only a rocket of 180 tons.

Icarus Dive seems scary in DV, but it isnt at all. Just fly beyond Jupiter and burn retrograde. Done, its really easy.

 

[Altaïr]

Icarus Dive seems scary in DV, but it isnt at all. Just fly beyond Jupiter and burn retrograde. Done, its really easy.

Ah, you're right. With a bi-elliptic transfer you cut by more than a half the delta-V needed.

 

[AstronautAdam]

Icarus Dive seems scary in DV, but it isnt at all. Just fly beyond Jupiter and burn retrograde. Done, its really easy.

And what if I have default core pack but with added Saturnus, Uranus and Neptune?(only this planets and its moons was added, and textures reworked from somebody on this forum(IT ISNT MY CREATION!))

 

[The epic chicken]

If that can help, I've calculated the delta-V requirements for each challenge (starting from LEO):

• Voyager quest: 1856 m/s
• 4k and beyond: 4000 m/s
• Icarus dive: 4518 m/s
• Salyut-Venus: 1437 m/s, from which up to 696 m/s can be saved through aerobraking

I tried the Icarus dive with only base parts, it's totally doable, I needed only a rocket of 180 tons.

These are good ideas
but what about base game players who can't add planets

 

[Pink]

And what if I have default core pack but with added Saturnus, Uranus and Neptune?(only this planets and its moons was added, and textures reworked from somebody on this forum(IT ISNT MY CREATION!))

That changes nothing. And in general you are *not* allowed to use any planet pack when doing challenge missions. IRIS is a special exception.

These are good ideas
but what about base game players who can't add planets

None of these need outer planets.

 

[The epic chicken]

That changes nothing. And in general you are *not* allowed to use any planet pack when doing challenge missions. IRIS is a special exception.


None of these need outer planets.

so
what does a voyager quest look like

 

[Pink]

so
what does a voyager quest look like

Escaping the solar system without gravity assists.

 

[Horus Lupercal]

so
what does a voyager quest look like

If you read the bloody post, it clearly says you aren't allowed to use gravity assists. So why would you need to have the planets / DLC (which only adds Jupiter in that direction anyway) to complete it...?

 

[Altaïr]

so
what does a voyager quest look like

You don't have to make a fly-by of any planet. That challenge is named "Voyager quest", but this is not supposed to be a Voyager recreation. You simply have to send your probe from LEO onto a trajectory that makes it escape the solar system.

 

[Blazer Ayanami]

Hey, the poll closed! Alright, the people chose Voyager Quest. Now, we’ll have to decide the specific parameters of the mission and set up the scenario.

 

[The Dark in the Light]

Hey, the poll closed! Alright, the people chose Voyager Quest. Now, we’ll have to decide the specific parameters of the mission and set up the scenario.

Could I possibly help with this? I would like to contribute a bit more to the Forum.