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Junipurr

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#51
Yep, that’s what Altaïr does. He’s been the teacher of... well... almost every single player on the forum.


Oh, I understand. You are basically using the moon to learn how to make the smallest possible burn. Interesting. Well, you really seem to be planning very high efficiency missions, that’s nice.


Yes, that’s exactly the case many many times. You will find that using the Oberth effect of Earth is usually much more efficient than nailing precise lunar gravity assistances. Specially if you are going for Venus who is very close to Earth and the burn required to take your perihelion to its orbit is very small, only a few dozens of m/s.


Ooooh, this is very very interesting. We got a couple of charts, a couple of rocket calculators here on the forum. But for what I understand, yours will be something completely new and unique, and because of that I’m sure it will be a very valuable contribution to the forum and the SFS community in general.

Also, are you using planet editing to create the rest of the galaxy?
Yes I have a long term plan of doing high efficiency trips with massive rockets in future.

The Oberth effect messes with my plan to map the ΔV boost effect. Depending on the starting point, it could have a huge affect on the map. This is one of the complications I have to deal with.

Yes, I have seen many ΔV charts, but what I working on is a gravity assist chart which shows ΔV boost with each flyby, depending on some characteristic which is easily measured in game. This may be impossible to chart, unless I can work out some standard procedure for removing extraneous effects. Oberth, dwell angle, insertion angle, are all difficult to measure in game, particularly if your own orbit is elliptical. If I have a standard LEO of 31km perfect circlular orbit as my starting point, I will eliminate the variation of Oberth affect from my tests.

The insertion angle is key to determining the magnitude of the boost affect, but so far the only way to adjust this, is by changeing the dwell angle, how long after the encounter window opens, before doing the initial burn. Once we are already on the Interplanetary Network, dwell angle will be impossible to measure, as we have already entered the SOI with some variable insertion angle.

We could get a protractor to measure the angle on the screen, but that is some crazy level of play style. I think what I will be doing is baseing the chart off rocket speed, altitude, periapsis, or something else which is a close approximation, and is easy to read in game.

I don't want to detract from the VEEGA approach, I think it is a very straight forward method for getting onto the Interplanetary Network from LEO, and which most people can easily grasp. I am interested in mapping what happens after that first flyby of Venus, weather that is towards a second Venus flyby, the first Earth flyby, or a flyby of Mercury. Mapping that second leg is going to help people like me who want to go places other than Jupiter on a regular basis.

That said, I don't need to do this. I could just use Veega to get to Jupiter and wing it from there. Since I plan to visit at least 12 planets outside the Solar System, having a very efficient chart will have a huge effect on how much fuel I will have left when I arrive at each Super Earth.

I am still working on my Modded map of the Galaxy. Since there are dozens of recently discovered Super Earths, I don't think I can add them all. I have arbitrarily set a boundry of about 20LY, any Super Earths within 20LY of the Solar System are already on my map. As is their parent star. I am hesitant to add neighbouring stars and planets, because each additional object is extra processing load on my old phone.

That said, I am still learning to mod SFS, but have already worked out how to delete clouds and fog. I am not sure how much effect this will have on my processor, as the best way to measure is to zoom out and run timewarp at max speed until the game locks up. Since the size of the custom map affects the maximum timewarp, this is another crucial factor for my own galaxy design.

I am keen to learn more about modding later, as I already have a very long to do list for SFS, so BOT? I want to make a boost chart which can be used for any planet/star combination, which will be some heavy matrix calculations in a spreadsheet. I am considering using google docs with an Automatically scaling graph. When the crucial parameters are entered for the three bodies in question, it refreshes the graph. This would be my dream result, but it may not be possible, despite SFS being 2D with no ecliptic planets.
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#52
Yes I have a long term plan of doing high efficiency trips with massive rockets in future.

The Oberth effect messes with my plan to map the ΔV boost effect. Depending on the starting point, it could have a huge affect on the map. This is one of the complications I have to deal with.

Yes, I have seen many ΔV charts, but what I working on is a gravity assist chart which shows ΔV boost with each flyby, depending on some characteristic which is easily measured in game. This may be impossible to chart, unless I can work out some standard procedure for removing extraneous effects. Oberth, dwell angle, insertion angle, are all difficult to measure in game, particularly if your own orbit is elliptical. If I have a standard LEO of 31km perfect circlular orbit as my starting point, I will eliminate the variation of Oberth affect from my tests.

The insertion angle is key to determining the magnitude of the boost affect, but so far the only way to adjust this, is by changeing the dwell angle, how long after the encounter window opens, before doing the initial burn. Once we are already on the Interplanetary Network, dwell angle will be impossible to measure, as we have already entered the SOI with some variable insertion angle.

We could get a protractor to measure the angle on the screen, but that is some crazy level of play style. I think what I will be doing is baseing the chart off rocket speed, altitude, periapsis, or something else which is a close approximation, and is easy to read in game.

I don't want to detract from the VEEGA approach, I think it is a very straight forward method for getting onto the Interplanetary Network from LEO, and which most people can easily grasp. I am interested in mapping what happens after that first flyby of Venus, weather that is towards a second Venus flyby, the first Earth flyby, or a flyby of Mercury. Mapping that second leg is going to help people like me who want to go places other than Jupiter on a regular basis.

That said, I don't need to do this. I could just use Veega to get to Jupiter and wing it from there. Since I plan to visit at least 12 planets outside the Solar System, having a very efficient chart will have a huge effect on how much fuel I will have left when I arrive at each Super Earth.

I am still working on my Modded map of the Galaxy. Since there are dozens of recently discovered Super Earths, I don't think I can add them all. I have arbitrarily set a boundry of about 20LY, any Super Earths within 20LY of the Solar System are already on my map. As is their parent star. I am hesitant to add neighbouring stars and planets, because each additional object is extra processing load on my old phone.

That said, I am still learning to mod SFS, but have already worked out how to delete clouds and fog. I am not sure how much effect this will have on my processor, as the best way to measure is to zoom out and run timewarp at max speed until the game locks up. Since the size of the custom map affects the maximum timewarp, this is another crucial factor for my own galaxy design.

I am keen to learn more about modding later, as I already have a very long to do list for SFS, so BOT? I want to make a boost chart which can be used for any planet/star combination, which will be some heavy matrix calculations in a spreadsheet. I am considering using google docs with an Automatically scaling graph. When the crucial parameters are entered for the three bodies in question, it refreshes the graph. This would be my dream result, but it may not be possible, despite SFS being 2D with no ecliptic planets.
Yes, the Oberth effect can have a massive influence in powered gravity assists. That effect is mostly beneficial, but it can be tricky when you try to take precise measures, ant not only variates basing on the insertion angle, but on how close to the planet is your flyby.
 

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#53
Yes, the Oberth effect can have a massive influence in powered gravity assists. That effect is mostly beneficial, but it can be tricky when you try to take precise measures, ant not only variates basing on the insertion angle, but on how close to the planet is your flyby.
so the closer the better GA right? :)
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#54
so the closer the better GA right? :)
Yeah, but you also need to consider both the insertion and exit angle, like Junipurr says: for example, if the exit angle is not parallel to the planet’s direction, your gravity assist will lose power, no matter how close to the planet you are...

Damn, it will take really serious calculations to find the most precise burns...
 

Mars Pathfinder

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#55
Yeah, but you also need to consider both the insertion and exit angle, like Junipurr says: for example, if the exit angle is not parallel to the planet’s direction, your gravity assist will lose power, no matter how close to the planet you are...

Damn, it will take really serious calculations to find the most precise burns...
oh ja! :D
 

Junipurr

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#56
The angle with the fourth body, is very non-linear. I can predict what angle range I can get leaving the third body, but I would also need to know the current angle of the fourth body in game. Then use some magic iterative formula to get a list of possible transit angles. This is getting too hard for a game.
 

James Brown

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#57
The angle with the fourth body, is very non-linear. I can predict what angle range I can get leaving the third body, but I would also need to know the current angle of the fourth body in game. The use some magic iterative formula to get a list of possible transit angles. This is getting too hard for a game.
Yeah, you remind me to increase my physics and maths. Astrophysicist and Theoretical physicist is my dream job
 

James Brown

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#58
One my physics increase, we can share our knowledge!
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#59
The angle with the fourth body, is very non-linear. I can predict what angle range I can get leaving the third body, but I would also need to know the current angle of the fourth body in game. Then use some magic iterative formula to get a list of possible transit angles. This is getting too hard for a game.
Three bodies in a row is already a big achievement! I mean, if you want to go for the forth, go for it. But you already have three, and that is something only a handful of people in the entire community can do.
 

SFSAbhishek

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#60
Three bodies in a row is already a big achievement! I mean, if you want to go for the forth, go for it. But you already have three, and that is something only a handful of people in the entire community can do.
I like ksp, at least it shows a trajectory line of second body before arriving at the soi of first. I think before adding elliptical orbits stef should add this thing.
 

Junipurr

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#62
Yeah, you remind me to increase my physics and maths. Astrophysicist and Theoretical physicist is my dream job
I have the required formulas now, and some data to plug into them. I know how to setup an iteration in a spreadsheet to solve for descrete non-linear formula n-space problems. It is just too much effort. Rules of thumb like Earth-Venus-Encounter conjunction, with approximate Apoapis, is the easiest way to map the Interplanetary Network, but I am not feeling it right now.
 
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#63
A third assist with Earth is easy. After your secod Earth assist, your perihelion is right at Earth orbit level. Your apohelion is around Uranus/Neptune. So when you reach apohelion, burn GENTLY retrograde to achieve a cheap Earth assist at a useful angle. Once again, you'll assist clockwise. Alpha Centauri will be left far behind you after this assist.
 

Junipurr

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I have the required formulas now, and some data to plug into them. I know how to setup an iteration in a spreadsheet to solve for descrete non-linear formula n-space problems. It is just too much effort. Rules of thumb like Earth-Venus-Encounter conjunction, with approximate Apoapis, is the easiest way to map the Interplanetary Network, but I am not feeling it right now.
Knowing Physics, Math and Engineering, is not enough. Hard work is also required.
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#65
After your secod Earth assist(...) Your apohelion is around Uranus/Neptune.
Actually, the second Earth Gravity Assist can put you on your way to Alpha Centauri, if you do it fine, at least that’s what happened back in 1.4. Is it different in 1.5 because the Sun is heavier?
 

Junipurr

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#67
A third assist with Earth is easy. After your secod Earth assist, your perihelion is right at Earth orbit level. Your apohelion is around Uranus/Neptune. So when you reach apohelion, burn GENTLY retrograde to achieve a cheap Earth assist at a useful angle. Once again, you'll assist clockwise. Alpha Centauri will be left far behind you after this assist.
Yes, I have overshot Jupiter and Saturn with double Earth Gravity Assists. What to do once we get to Alpha Centuri, in regards to retrograde assists, is still a bit of a mystery to me. Obviously go low Apohelion retrograde to begin with, but will this put us into a trajectory that is close to encountering the planet ProximaB?
 
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#69
If you have established an encounter with a star, first get a low perhelion, clockwise. Than burn retrograde when you reach it, until you intercept one of its planets. You then assist in a direction that reduces your aphelion. It's basically the Mercury scenario.
 

Junipurr

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Yes, I have overshot Jupiter and Saturn with double Earth Gravity Assists. What to do once we get to Alpha Centuri, in regards to retrograde assists, is still a bit of a mystery to me. Obviously go low Apohelion retrograde to begin with, but will this put us into a trajectory that is close to encountering the planet ProximaB?
Also in the time it takes to reach Star Proxima Centuri Apohelion, from SOI, ProximaB has probably done hundreds of orbits, so winging it seems to be the best approach. I suspect a second pass of Star Proxima Centauri will be required to wipe off enough interplanetary momentum, even with Aerobraking. VEM results in so much speed, that Aerobraking in Mars low Atmosphere, literally scrubbing the mountain tops at 2500mps, still results in escaping Mars SOI with another retroburn ASAP. What is the general feeling about Aerodynamic brakes, is it cheating, or l33t skill?
 

Junipurr

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#71
If you have established an encounter with a star, first get a low perhelion, clockwise. Than burn retrograde when you reach it, until you intercept one of its planets. You then assist in a direction that reduces your aphelion. It's basically the Mercury scenario.
Right clockwise to match orbit first, rather than retrograde first. The burn at Apohelion will be pretty efficient because of Oberth effect, but what percentage of fuel is it going to take out of a Star Cruiser?
 

Blazer Ayanami

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#72
VEM results in so much speed, that Aerobraking in Mars low Atmosphere, literally scrubbing the mountain tops at 2500mps, still results in escaping Mars SOI
Aerobraking on Mars is not usually a good idea if you are coming too fast because the atmosphere is too thin and it won’t break you enough. Even coming from Earth, Mars aerobrake may be a little tricky.

What is the general feeling about Aerodynamic brakes, is it cheating, or l33t skill?
It’s allowed. You cannot call it cheating because it has been used even on real life.
 
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#73
Right clockwise to match orbit first, rather than retrograde first. The burn at Apohelion will be pretty efficient because of Oberth effect, but what percentage of fuel is it going to take out of a Star Cruiser?
That shouldn't be much. Aerobraking is legal and a good move.
 

Junipurr

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#74
Maybe using an assistance of a planet, or some of the secondary stars Beta or Proxima?
The other stars and planets of the Alpha / Beta / Proxima Centuri System, would help with going a low burn. More objects to hopefully get a low burn gravity assist. The problem I have personally, is deciding how many of those to add to my galaxy map mod? I don't really know how many planets my hone can handle yet. WIP.