Team Hawk Instructions!

[Altaïr]

Can there be refueling while doing orbital construction?

If orbital assembly is allowed then yes
All the ships you refuel from must have been launched in the scope of the mission though.

 

[UN Cosmo Navy]

If orbital assembly is allowed then yes
All the ships you refuel from must have been launched in the scope of the mission though.

So I can just technically launch a refueling ship for just only refueling?

 

[Altaïr]

So I can just technically launch a refueling ship for just only refueling?

Yes.

 

[Darthan]

I'm looking into attempting the Deja Vu challenge (not sure about it yet) and have a few questions.
1) Can ground equipment/facilities use infinite build area?
2) Can the first stage reach LEO (effectively making it SSTO) provided there is at least one other stage used to deliver the payload to a higher orbit (both launches)?
3) Can a fairing be part of the payload?
4) Is there a minimum payload mass?
5) Can parachutes be attached to a heatshield and parachutes+heatshield replaced?

 

[Orion]

1) Can ground equipment/facilities use infinite build area?

AFAIK yes.

2) Can the first stage reach LEO (effectively making it SSTO) provided there is at least one other stage used to deliver the payload to a higher orbit (both launches)?

No, no SSTOs. Besides, the upper stage would have to be reusable too.

3) Can a fairing be part of the payload?

4) Is there a minimum payload mass?

Nope

5) Can parachutes be attached to a heatshield and parachutes+heatshield replaced?

Parachutes can be reattached, I don't think heat sheilds can.

 

[Darthan]

No, no SSTOs. Besides, the upper stage would have to be reusable too.

I'll try to clarify. The plan is to have a 2 stage reusable rocket + payload. The plan is:

Launch to low orbit (about 45km). The first stage has enough fuel for this (would be SSTO if on it own - this is what I'm unsure about).

Detach stage 2 leaving stage 1 in LEO.

Raise stage 2 + payload to medium(?) earth orbit. First test of this was to a 383kn/419km orbit.

Detach payload (includes fairing).

Lower stage 2 orbit to LEO.

At this point stage 1 and stage 2 are in LEO (about 45km) and the payload at approx 400km

Attempt to land both stages as close to the launchpad as possible.

Parachutes can be reattached, I don't think heat sheilds can.

Attempt to replace parachute sets for both stages. The stage 1 parachutes are attached to a heatshield so the heat shield gets replaced as well. The stage 1 parachutes are attached to a truss so the truss gets replaced as well (I've seen this accepted in other Deja Vu attempts).

Attempt to attach stage 2 to stage 1, payload to stage 2, raise ensemble to vertical (plan is to land them horizontally), refuel and relaunch.

Since the stages still have to be re-attached (lack of this was the quoted reason for no SSTOs) I was hoping this might be acceptable despite stage 1 being SSTO-capable.

An alternate plan would be to reattach stage 1 and stage 2 in orbit - land the combined stages, then re-attach just the payload - however that would be equivalent to a full SSTO design with some orbital assembly so probably would not be acceptable.

you did not answer:

3) Can a fairing be part of the payload?

 

[Altaïr]

I confirm that it's not allowed to have a first stage that is able to reach orbit by itself, it's considered a SSTO in this case.

About this...

3) Can a fairing be part of the payload?

Nothing prevents from having a fairing part being part of your payload, but if that's your question, the actual fairing must be part of the rocket and has to be reused too.

 

[Darthan]

I confirm that it's not allowed to have a first stage that is able to reach orbit by itself, it's considered a SSTO in this case.

Looks like this challenge is beyond me at the moment:

Have to land the first stage and launch the second stage to orbit at the same time - I can only control one rocket at a time and physics seems to switch off for rockets other than the one controlled. I've seen discarded stages that did not quite make LEO orbiting quite happily through the lower atmosphere, only to burn up once you switch to them.

The first stage lands too far from launchpad to be retreived - the best I've managed with 'drones' or with rovers in a reasonable time is a few kilometers. I mught be able to extend the practical rover limit a little using rocket-assisted rovers, but not to hundreds of kilometers.

Nothing prevents from having a fairing part being part of your payload, but if that's your question, the actual fairing must be part of the rocket and has to be reused too.

I might be able to solve this one, I've managed to create a hinge that opens > 90 degrees.

 

[Axiom]

I have not done or attempted this challenge so take everything I say with a pinch of salt, but I do have some ideas:

Have to land the first stage and launch the second stage to orbit at the same time - I can only control one rocket at a time and physics seems to switch off for rockets other than the one controlled. I've seen discarded stages that did not quite make LEO orbiting quite happily through the lower atmosphere, only to burn up once you switch to them.

Maybe make it so the first stage doesn't make the second stage gain much horizontal velocity, but make it so it launches the second stage to a high orbit so you have time to land the booster

This also solves your second problem that

The first stage lands too far from launchpad to be retreived - the best I've managed with 'drones' or with rovers in a reasonable time is a few kilometers. I mught be able to extend the practical rover limit a little using rocket-assisted rovers, but not to hundreds of kilometers.

So you could make it so the booster doesn't go that far (or fast) horizontally so it's easy to launch the booster to the launchpad

I might be able to solve this one, I've managed to create a hinge that opens > 90 degrees.

That wouldn't have been my first thought, I would have tried to make it so I could dock with the fairings afterward

I hope this helps, good luck on your quest to team hawk!

 

[Darthan]

I have not done or attempted this challenge so take everything I say with a pinch of salt, but I do have some ideas:

Maybe make it so the first stage doesn't make the second stage gain much horizontal velocity, but make it so it launches the second stage to a high orbit so you have time to land the booster

This also solves your second problem that

So you could make it so the booster doesn't go that far (or fast) horizontally so it's easy to launch the booster to the launchpad

I did a quick test trying this. I used my current design (1st stage SSTO) and launched it straight up. When it ran out of fuel (outside the atmosphere) I detached the second stage, rotated it 90 deg and started the engines until they ran out of fuel. Max height for first stage was about 860km. Managed to re-enter without overheating the heatshield and managed to land about 7km from the launchpad. So that strategy could work for the first stage. Needless to say the second stage did not reach orbit (it only has a dv of about 770).

There is a theoretical problem. Giving the second stage enough dv to reach orbital velocity on its own would make it close to being SSTO itself (not quite though - there is loss of dv due to fighting gravity and atmospheric friction). Giving it a TWR of <1 should ensure it cannot be SSTO.

This is a promising line to try, need to experiment with lower dv first stage and higher dv second stage - efficiency would be abysmal though!

(hinged fairings)

That wouldn't have been my first thought, I would have tried to make it so I could dock with the fairings afterward

I actually got this to work (no launcher, used warpinator to get it to orbit):


Successful de-orbited and re-entered. Needs more work to make it reusable - can't simply use a separator attached to the heatshield - and some sort of aerodynamic improvement is needed around the heatshield, but looks doable in principle.

I hope this helps, good luck on your quest to team hawk!

Thanks for your suggestions, this challenge is looking more promising.

 

[Axiom]

This is a promising line to try, need to experiment with lower dv first stage and higher dv second stage - efficiency would be abysmal though!

Well this challenge is just to send any payload to orbit, no matter the efficiency
That's how you get goofy ass rockets like this:

 

[Altaïr]

Well this challenge is just to send any payload to orbit, no matter the efficiency
That's how you get goofy ass rockets like this:
View attachment 117208

What? Isn't that launcher magnificent?

...

Ok it's awful. It's for a reason that I named it after a banned member after all.
You know, actually I partly agree with you. When that challenge was made, there were no reentry effects so you didn't have to worry about how you reentered, which made this challenge easier. Still not easy, but easier. This is precisely the reason why I used that weird engine placement.
Note that I made that challenge in IRIS though, my pseudo-realistic planet pack, so this is why it needed that huge launcher for a small satellite though.

 

[Orion]

I cam do the Deja Vu challenge in Realistic, right? It seems easier somehow.

 

[Altaïr]

I cam do the Deja Vu challenge in Realistic, right? It seems easier somehow.

You can, but I'm not sure about how it's supposed to be easier...

 

[New Horizons]

Can we change throttle % in quicksaves for any mission?

 

[Axiom]

Can we change throttle % in quicksaves for any mission?

if you overthrottle I'd say that would be the same as stretching engines, as you gain thrust without gaining mass, so no I don't think so

 

[New Horizons]

Who judges Replica entries now that Marmilo is retired?

 

[Axiom]

Pink I think (That rhymes)

 

[Pink]

Yes, I do it when I can.
It helps if people provide their reference schematics, saves a little time

 

[Darthan]

I think I have a plan and designs for the Team Hawk reusability challange (Deja Vu). It is rather long and complex, and I'd rather not have to repeat it, so I have a few questions:

The configuration is:
* Payload on top of stage two.
* Payload + stage two inside a cargo bay of stage one (like a shuttle).
* Stage one is not SSTO capable (fuel too low).
* Stage two is not SSTO capable (thrust too low - fuel may too low be also).

The flight plan is:
* Launch vertically until stage one fuel is exhusted and is outside atmosphere.
* Separate stage two. Thrust stage two horizontally until sub-orbital path 'looks good'. When close enough to apoapsis (about 200km in tests) circularise orbit, release payload, lower periapsis to 60km.
* Stage one should be still outside the atmosphere at this point and dropping vertically close to launchpad: land stage one.
* Stage two: Circularise orbit at 60km, then deorbit aiming to be as close to the launchpad as possible.

The assembly plan includes
Removing and replaceing parachutes:
For stage 2 - parachutes are attached to struts and docks - the entire assembly will be replaced.
For stage 1 - parachutes are attached to struts, docks and a nose cone - the entire assembly will be replaced.

Is this OK? Uncertain points are:

1) Stage 2 inside stage 1 - like a shuttle - not on top of it as is normal. Is this OK?

2) Stage 1 vertical flight path. Is this OK?

3) Both stages landed to minimise distance from launchpad on landing. Is this OK?

4) Cannot replace just the parachutes - they have to be attached to a sub-assembly and the entire sub-assembly replaced. Can the sub-assembly include the following: struts, docks and nose cones?

For the ground equipment (and it is ground i.e. not flight-capable)

5) Can they be spawned any number of times?

6) Can they be recovered at any place once used (sometimes with old parachute assemblies) - even if they do not have a ground path back to the launchpad because something is in the way?

The screenshot requirements for reassembly are a bit vague "Reassembly (including ground equipment)".

7) Are the following sufficient for each item added (or taken away in the case of used parachutes)?
- launchpad (either not carrying anything, or carrying something)
- attached to target
- detached from target (either having picked up something, or having attached something to the target)

Additional design screen screenshots/blueprints can be provided later easily, extra screenshots requires re-doing everything!

 

[Altaïr]

1) Stage 2 inside stage 1 - like a shuttle - not on top of it as is normal. Is this OK?

That's kinda unusual but no problem. Our only concern is that it must not be a SSTO.

2) Stage 1 vertical flight path. Is this OK?

Yes.

3) Both stages landed to minimise distance from launchpad on landing. Is this OK?

Ok, and strongly advised!

4) Cannot replace just the parachutes - they have to be attached to a sub-assembly and the entire sub-assembly replaced. Can the sub-assembly include the following: struts, docks and nose cones?

Yes. The parachutes themselves but also the materials needed to have them attached can be replaced. Not sure about why you would need to replace nose cones, but ok we would accept it.

5) Can they be spawned any number of times?

6) Can they be recovered at any place once used (sometimes with old parachute assemblies) - even if they do not have a ground path back to the launchpad because something is in the way?

Yes and yes. You can spawn them as many times as you want, recover them, crash them, we don't mind.

7) Are the following sufficient for each item added (or taken away in the case of used parachutes)?
- launchpad (either not carrying anything, or carrying something)
- attached to target
- detached from target (either having picked up something, or having attached something to the target)

This is largely enough. Just make sure the operations you perform are clear for the reader. This challenge is difficult enough, we can show some tolerance if a few screenshots have been skipped.

 

[Darthan]

Thanks! I had designed the rocket and all the ground equipment before posting the questions. Looks like no re-design will be needed.

I've now started the mission - so far I've managed the first launch and landing. The first stage came down 638m west of the launchpad and the second stage 131m west. My original assembly plan assumed the second stage would come down east, possibly several kilometers away. With a bit of reordering second stage being west is a bit simpler. It might have come down a bit too close to the launchpad - the ground equipment might be partially on the launch pad slope - I should be able to work around this if it is a problem. If all else fails I can revert to a quicksave and retry the stage 2 landing.

The assembly plan currently has 15 steps each with about 8-sub steps. The flight plan had 4 main steps each of which had about 6 sub-steps. I dread to think about how big a real-life plan would be!

 

[Axiom]

Thanks! I had designed the rocket and all the ground equipment before posting the questions. Looks like no re-design will be needed.

I've now started the mission - so far I've managed the first launch and landing. The first stage came down 638m west of the launchpad and the second stage 131m west. My original assembly plan assumed the second stage would come down east, possibly several kilometers away. With a bit of reordering second stage being west is a bit simpler. It might have come down a bit too close to the launchpad - the ground equipment might be partially on the launch pad slope - I should be able to work around this if it is a problem. If all else fails I can revert to a quicksave and retry the stage 2 landing.

The assembly plan currently has 15 steps each with about 8-sub steps. The flight plan had 4 main steps each of which had about 6 sub-steps. I dread to think about how big a real-life plan would be!

That's why resuable rockets are so hard, I should really try this challenge though

 

[New Horizons]

Hey, would using the below design be legal?

That's why resuable rockets are so hard, I should really try this challenge though

 

[Axiom]

I'd assume so as long as the Hawk in stage one has heat enabled, you have some method of resusing/recovering the fairings and you have a way of replenishing the parachutes