Aviation

Pink · Apr 20, 2020

If you were talking about low flying planes and not B-52's, you should have said so.
(That's what the article was talking about)

Kirk_TGM · Apr 20, 2020

frick this i'm out.

Blazer Ayanami · Apr 20, 2020

I think is not humanly possible to hit a B-52 inflight with an AK from the ground.

Horus Lupercal · Apr 20, 2020

Roger Jolly said:

Then you don't understand my point at all. My point wasn't that all farmers are guerrillas. My point was that a guerrilla (which, by the very nature of Vietnam and the areas contested, meant a large proportion were farmers) untrained, with very basic equipment is not bringing down high altitude, high speed bombers.
So put your knickers back on, i know the difference between farmers and insurgents. I've met both.
Unless, as usual, you wanted me to list every single potential trade that might or might not have had members of the VC from. I could, but I wont, because it doesn't change the point I was making.

Roger Jolly said:

Then you don't understand genocide at all. Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a race or people. I'm sorry to inform you of this so late in your life, but the US hasn't engaged in that kind of behaviour since the old west.

If the United States were engaged in genocide and deliberately erasing a race or nation by explosives, then North Vietnam would cease to exist. The amount of conventional, non-nuclear firepower that the USAF SAC could deliver to a target in the late 60s/early 70s is beyond comprehension.
No other military before or since has that kind of conventional hitting power. Forget Russian artillery bombardments before the fall of Berlin. Forget Allied Air Power and thousand bomber raids during WWII. Forget firebombing Dresden or the London blitz or the air war over Malta.
B-52 sorties alone during arc light dropped more explosives than the sum total of all airforces throughout the entirety of the second world war.

Even the USAF (and for clarity, my use of USAF throughout also includes air power from the other American combat arms like the US Navy, US Army and the Marine Corps) now couldn't manage what it was capable of 40 years ago.

The word you are looking for is Democide. The intentional targeting of civilians.

On that, my suggestion would be to read objectively into the strategic air campaign and the self imposed restrictions and restraints imposed on the USAF by the US government.
You'll see that they were unable to conduct the kind of raids that would normally have been standard practice (bombing infrastructure in N. Vietnam) and even when they eventually started doing it, they were so worried about extra collateral that the aircraft were not allowed to deviate from flight paths even to avoid ground fire in case it meant they missed the intended targets and landed in civilian areas.

I would also like to point out that the million (not millions) or so casualties during the Vietnam War weren't all carried out by the USAF, or even the US. It includes the tit for tat N vs S in-fighting (nearly a quarter of a million people), the nearly 40,000 people rounded up and executed by the Vietcong, the actual military casualties sustained by all sides during fighting.

https://sites.tufts.edu/atrocityendings/2015/08/07/vietnam-vietnam-war/#_edn22

And yes, whilst I agree the loss of life was immense, the reasons were dogmatic madness and lessons absolutely need to be learned to stop a repeat.
But you also need to learn the difference between sloppy collateral damage, targetting of civilians and aimed, systematic extermination.
For reference, US airstrikes killed an estimated 55,000 people (source cited above) over the course of the Vietnam war and includes everyone, military and civilian killed by american aircraft.
Which is a ludicrous number.
Until you put it next to certain other figures.

Democide:
That's half the number of Japanese civilians killed in one of the 2 atomic strikes.
That's 2 nights work over Germany for the Allied Air Forces in 1944/45.

Genocide:
That's about a fortnight at Auschwitz.
That's one sixth of the 1937-38 Nanking massacre.

People are getting offended here, and i don't see why. We laugh about sending people to Gulag so much it's almost a meme.
However, 91,000 German army personnel surrendered to the Red Army at the end of Stalingrad. 5,000 eventually returned home. 1 million people died as a result of Stalins russian labour camps. No one does backflips and gets offended when we joke about KV-2s being armed with the cold hand of Stalin though.

War is shit, and civilians always always get the worst of it. And I'll never say otherwise (well, there is one exception, but that's another subject). But yeah, I will say it wasn't that personal.
Cos if it was, then that number would have another zero at the end of it.

Horus Lupercal said:

Edit, Hanoi City. Operation Linebacker.

Roger Jolly · Apr 20, 2020

Horus Lupercal said:

Then you don't understand my point at all. My point wasn't that all farmers are guerrillas. My point was that a guerrilla (which, by the very nature of Vietnam and the areas contested, meant a large proportion were farmers) untrained, with very basic equipment is not bringing down high altitude, high speed bombers.
So put your knickers back on, i know the difference between farmers and insurgents. I've met both.
Unless, as usual, you wanted me to list every single potential trade that might or might not have had members of the VC from. I could, but I wont, because it doesn't change the point I was making.

Then you don't understand genocide at all. Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a race or people. I'm sorry to inform you of this so late in your life, but the US hasn't engaged in that kind of behaviour since the old west.

If the United States were engaged in genocide and deliberately erasing a race or nation by explosives, then North Vietnam would cease to exist. The amount of conventional, non-nuclear firepower that the USAF SAC could deliver to a target in the late 60s/early 70s is beyond comprehension.
No other military before or since has that kind of conventional hitting power. Forget Russian artillery bombardments before the fall of Berlin. Forget Allied Air Power and thousand bomber raids during WWII. Forget firebombing Dresden or the London blitz or the air war over Malta.
B-52 sorties alone during arc light dropped more explosives than the sum total of all airforces throughout the entirety of the second world war.

Even the USAF (and for clarity, my use of USAF throughout also includes air power from the other American combat arms like the US Navy, US Army and the Marine Corps) now couldn't manage what it was capable of 40 years ago.

The word you are looking for is Democide. The intentional targeting of civilians.

On that, my suggestion would be to read objectively into the strategic air campaign and the self imposed restrictions and restraints imposed on the USAF by the US government.
You'll see that they were unable to conduct the kind of raids that would normally have been standard practice (bombing infrastructure in N. Vietnam) and even when they eventually started doing it, they were so worried about extra collateral that the aircraft were not allowed to deviate from flight paths even to avoid ground fire in case it meant they missed the intended targets and landed in civilian areas.

I would also like to point out that the million (not millions) or so casualties during the Vietnam War weren't all carried out by the USAF, or even the US. It includes the tit for tat N vs S in-fighting (nearly a quarter of a million people), the nearly 40,000 people rounded up and executed by the Vietcong, the actual military casualties sustained by all sides during fighting.

https://sites.tufts.edu/atrocityendings/2015/08/07/vietnam-vietnam-war/#_edn22

And yes, whilst I agree the loss of life was immense, the reasons were dogmatic madness and lessons absolutely need to be learned to stop a repeat.
But you also need to learn the difference between sloppy collateral damage, targetting of civilians and aimed, systematic extermination.
For reference, US airstrikes killed an estimated 55,000 people (source cited above) over the course of the Vietnam war and includes everyone, military and civilian killed by american aircraft.
Which is a ludicrous number.
Until you put it next to certain other figures.

Democide:
That's half the number of Japanese civilians killed in one of the 2 atomic strikes.
That's 2 nights work over Germany for the Allied Air Forces in 1944/45.

Genocide:
That's about a fortnight at Auschwitz.
That's one sixth of the 1937-38 Nanking massacre.

People are getting offended here, and i don't see why. We laugh about sending people to Gulag so much it's almost a meme.
However, 91,000 German army personnel surrendered to the Red Army at the end of Stalingrad. 5,000 eventually returned home. 1 million people died as a result of Stalins russian labour camps. No one does backflips and gets offended when we joke about KV-2s being armed with the cold hand of Stalin though.

War is shit, and civilians always always get the worst of it. And I'll never say otherwise (well, there is one exception, but that's another subject). But yeah, I will say it wasn't that personal.
Cos if it was, then that number would have another zero at the end of it.

Edit, Hanoi City. Operation Linebacker.

You make me laugh with garbage like this

2-4M Vietnamese and Cambodians died because we invaded it;
War is shit and the US created the Vietnam war, BS is our #1 export

Horus Lupercal · Apr 20, 2020

Roger Jolly said:

You've done it again and used words you seem to have little meaning of.

America did not invade vietnam. It was asked for help by the S.Vietnamese government and was only too happy to help thanks to fears of communism spreading.

In order for the US to invade Vietnam, it would've been fighting the South as well as the North.

In fact, I'm almost sure the US never entered the North either. It certainly rarely strayed there with aircraft. So as invasions go, it's the least invasiony invasion in the history of invasions.

Roger Jolly said:

Where are your sources for 3 million? Four million?

Even the most outlandish casualty claims I've seen barely even break 2 million. And that is total, north and south.

Roger Jolly said:

I probably do, but the problem with my garbage is its backed up by evidence.

Roger Jolly said:

No, it didn't. It got involved in the ongoing Vietnam war. Which had been going on for quite a while before the US arrived. See also French Colonialism in Indo-China.

I do love our conversations. Most of what you say comes straight out of a tinfoil headpiece and I genuinely don't understand why you perpetually believe your government, in the country you live in, manned by people you grew up around, voted for by you is always the enemy.
But it is enjoyable.

I honestly believe the only anti-US conspiracies you're not into is flat earth and fake moon landings.

Other than that, Uncle Sam is the devil.

Tony · Apr 20, 2020

It is an aerospace games forum. I understand the differences opinions. But it becomes politics. We are here to share our passion. Not to shoot himself. There is another forum for this. Horus Lupercal respects your knowledge even if it is sometimes very affirmative. but this is not the right place.

Horus Lupercal · Apr 21, 2020

There were a lot of things we couldn't do in an SR-71, but we were the fastest guys on the block and loved reminding our fellow aviators of this fact. People often asked us if, because of this fact, it was fun to fly the jet. Fun would not be the first word I would use to describe flying this plane. Intense, maybe. Even cerebral.
But there was one day in our Sled experience when we would have to say that it was pure fun to be the fastest guys out there, at least for a moment.

It occurred when Walt and I were flying our final training sortie. We needed 100 hours in the jet to complete our training and attain Mission Ready status. Somewhere over Colorado we had passed the century mark.
We had made the turn in Arizona and the jet was performing flawlessly. My gauges were wired in the front seat and we were starting to feel pretty good about ourselves, not only because we would soon be flying real missions but because we had gained a great deal of confidence in the plane in the past ten months. Ripping across the barren deserts 80,000 feet below us, I could already see the coast of California from the Arizona border. I was, finally, after many humbling months of simulators and study, ahead of the jet.

I was beginning to feel a bit sorry for Walter in the back seat. There he was, with no really good view of the incredible sights before us, tasked with monitoring four different radios. This was good practice for him for when we began flying real missions, when a priority transmission from headquarters could be vital. It had been difficult, too, for me to relinquish control of the radios, as during my entire flying career I had controlled my own transmissions. But it was part of the division of duties in this plane and I had adjusted to it. I still insisted on talking on the radio while we were on the ground, however. Walt was so good at many things, but he couldn't match my expertise at sounding smooth on the radios, a skill that had been honed sharply with years in fighter squadrons where the slightest radio miscue was grounds for beheading. He understood that and allowed me that luxury.

Just to get a sense of what Walt had to contend with, I pulled the radio toggle switches and monitored the frequencies along with him. The predominant radio chatter was from Los Angeles Center, far below us, controlling daily traffic in their sector. While they had us on their scope (albeit briefly), we were in uncontrolled airspace and normally would not talk to them unless we needed to descend into their airspace.

We listened as the shaky voice of a lone Cessna pilot asked Center for a readout of his ground speed. Center replied: "November Charlie 175, I'm showing you at ninety knots on the ground."

Now the thing to understand about Center controllers, was that whether they were talking to a rookie pilot in a Cessna, or to Air Force One, they always spoke in the exact same, calm, deep, professional, tone that made one feel important. I referred to it as the " Houston Center voice." I have always felt that after years of seeing documentaries on this country's space program and listening to the calm and distinct voice of the Houston controllers, that all other controllers since then wanted to sound like that, and that they basically did. And it didn't matter what sector of the country we would be flying in, it always seemed like the same guy was talking. Over the years that tone of voice had become somewhat of a comforting sound to pilots everywhere. Conversely, over the years, pilots always wanted to ensure that, when transmitting, they sounded like Chuck Yeager, or at least like John Wayne. Better to die than sound bad on the radios.

Just moments after the Cessna's inquiry, a Twin Beech piped up on frequency, in a rather superior tone, asking for his ground speed. "I have you at one hundred and twenty-five knots of ground speed." Boy, I thought, the Beechcraft really must think he is dazzling his Cessna brethren. Then out of the blue, a navy F-18 pilot out of NAS Lemoore came up on frequency. You knew right away it was a Navy jock because he sounded very cool on the radios. "Center, Dusty 52 ground speed check". Before Center could reply, I'm thinking to myself, hey, Dusty 52 has a ground speed indicator in that million-dollar cockpit, so why is he asking Center for a readout? Then I got it, ol' Dusty here is making sure that every bug smasher from Mount Whitney to the Mojave knows what true speed is. He's the fastest dude in the valley today, and he just wants everyone to know how much fun he is having in his new Hornet. And the reply, always with that same, calm, voice, with more distinct alliteration than emotion: "Dusty 52, Center, we have you at 620 on the ground."

And I thought to myself, is this a ripe situation, or what? As my hand instinctively reached for the mic button, I had to remind myself that Walt was in control of the radios. Still, I thought, it must be done - in mere seconds we'll be out of the sector and the opportunity will be lost. That Hornet must die, and die now. I thought about all of our Sim training and how important it was that we developed well as a crew and knew that to jump in on the radios now would destroy the integrity of all that we had worked toward becoming. I was torn.

Somewhere, 13 miles above Arizona, there was a pilot screaming inside his space helmet. Then, I heard it. The click of the mic button from the back seat. That was the very moment that I knew Walter and I had become a crew. Very professionally, and with no emotion, Walter spoke: "Los Angeles Center, Aspen 20, can you give us a ground speed check?" There was no hesitation, and the replay came as if was an everyday request. "Aspen 20, I show you at one thousand eight hundred and forty-two knots, across the ground."

I think it was the forty-two knots that I liked the best, so accurate and proud was Center to deliver that information without hesitation, and you just knew he was smiling. But the precise point at which I knew that Walt and I were going to be really good friends for a long time was when he keyed the mic once again to say, in his most fighter-pilot-like voice: "Ah, Center, much thanks, we're showing closer to nineteen hundred on the money."

For a moment Walter was a god. And we finally heard a little crack in the armor of the Houston Center voice, when L.A.came back with, "Roger that Aspen, Your equipment is probably more accurate than ours. You boys have a good one."

It all had lasted for just moments, but in that short, memorable sprint across the southwest, the Navy had been flamed, all mortal airplanes on freq were forced to bow before the King of Speed, and more importantly, Walter and I had crossed the threshold of being a crew. A fine day's work. We never heard another transmission on that frequency all the way to the coast.

For just one day, it truly was fun being the fastest guys out there.

Tony · Apr 21, 2020

Horus Lupercal. There are different ways to get a message across. This one is very positive

Horus Lupercal · Apr 21, 2020

Tony said:

Yes, yes it is. The pilot in the story is a guy named Brian Shul, who was hideously burned after being shot down during Vietnam and became a Habu pilot because the doctors told him he'd be lucky to live, never mind fly again.
These days he does inspirational talks, helped by a natural storytelling ability, hard won lessons and super cool stories such as this one, the infamous 'LA Speed Story'.

Brian is a bit of a Habu legend and holds a record or 2 for most flights in a week and claims to hold the absolute airspeed record for a manned, air breathing, production aircraft by doing 'about Mach 3.5' in a Blackbird outrunning a missile or 2 over Libya.

Blazer Ayanami · Apr 22, 2020

Is it true the Blackbird has to refuel as soon as it takes off?

Horus Lupercal · Apr 22, 2020

Blazer said:

Pretty much. It needs a tanker waiting once it gets to altitude. And certainly before it climbs out and burns towards target. The engines are terribly bad at low speeds, low level and warm ambient temperatures and the infamous panel gaps meant it was leaking constantly until it went fast enough.

The documentary mentions it burnt something between 7 and 13 tons of fuel (depending on temp) to go from mach 1.6 to mach 3.2. I can only imagine what the fuel burn to thrust would be at full afterburner at sea level.

But at 80,000ft, it could do 5,000km to a tank

Blazer Ayanami · Apr 22, 2020

Horus Lupercal said:

Something insane. Anyway, thanks for the answer.

Pink · Apr 22, 2020

Apparently, the leaking fuel wasn't a significant factor.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/for...hy-the-blackbird-had-to-refuel-after-takeoff/

Horus Lupercal · Apr 22, 2020

Blazer said:

Ah, here we go

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird#Fuel

It takes off with partial fuel to reduce stress on the airframe and in case an engine breaks it'll still be able to lift off.

But, it does burn 16 to 20 tons of fuel an hour. And definitely got more efficient the faster it went.

Horus Lupercal · Apr 22, 2020

Mooncrasher said:

Yeah, the documentary actually shows an Air Force servicing guide showing the amount of drips per time frame per location the aircraft was allowed to drip before it was supposed to go and get the panels tightened up.

Horus Lupercal · Apr 23, 2020

Etherian Space Program, Big Will Shakespeare may never have seen a B-17 up close.

But I have...

The only flight worthy Flying Fortress in Europe. B-17G ser. 44-85784 Sally B / Memphis Belle at Duxford IWM June 2017 in the middle of pre-engine start up checks.

I do have somewhere the video as well of it firing up, but can't think what I've done with it.

The Dark in the Light · Apr 23, 2020

Horus Lupercal said:

Etherian Space Program, Big Will Shakespeare may never have seen a B-17 up close.

But I have...

View attachment 36356

The only flight worthy Flying Fortress in Europe. B-17G ser. 44-85784 Sally B / Memphis Belle at Duxford IWM June 2017 in the middle of pre-engine start up checks.

I do have somewhere the video as well of it firing up, but can't think what I've done with it.

Damn, that is one nice plane.

Horus Lupercal · Apr 23, 2020

Etherian Space Program said:

She's a beauty.

Anyone in or visiting the UK, i whole heartedly recommend Duxford. On a bad day it's got an enormous tank museum, one of a kind exhibits like the Sally B, a B-52 Stratofortress and the only Blackbird outside of the USA.

On a good day, you may be treated to the sound of RR Merlin engine with the throttle set to spine tingling as it's one of the few places in the world where there are semi regular Spitfire flights.

The Dark in the Light · Apr 23, 2020

Horus Lupercal said:

She's a beauty.

Anyone in or visiting the UK, i whole heartedly recommend Duxford. On a bad day it's got an enormous tank museum, one of a kind exhibits like the Sally B, a B-52 Stratofortress and the only Blackbird outside of the USA.

On a good day, you may be treated to the sound of RR Merlin engine with the throttle set to spine tingling as it's one of the few places in the world where there are semi regular Spitfire flights.

Now I wanna go to the UK.

Horus Lupercal · Apr 23, 2020

Etherian Space Program said:

I need to dig up the photos I took now.

The American Air Museum is really good. You don't believe how big a Stratofortress is until you're stood next to an A-10 that's parked underneath its wing.

It's not Antonov big, but an AN-124/224 is just comedic sized and doesn't count. Bloody thing is indistinguishable from a cargo ship from the inside.

The Dark in the Light · Apr 23, 2020

Horus Lupercal said:

I think I may have seen one of these at an airshow. Such a big plane.

Blazer Ayanami · Apr 24, 2020

Horus Lupercal said:

Ah, the Memphis Belle, such a beautiful plane. Wasn't it the only plane the Completed all mandatory missions?

Horus Lupercal · Apr 24, 2020

Blazer said:

Nah. It wasn't the only, or even the first. Just the one that ended up in a film.

Hell, nine o'nine (see my previous post about B-17s) completed 140 almost consecutive missions without loss of crew or breakdown.

Lt. Snakestrike · Apr 26, 2020

Aviation

(Mooncrasher)

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(Mooncrasher)

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The Dark in the Light

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The Kronian Serpent; Engineering Student