Forum War

You know, if the pay wasn't turd and the thought of being around politicians makes me want to dry heave, I'd get into politics. Or teaching properly.
Wouldn't quite call it BS though. Long winded, absolutely. I went over the 12,000 character limit by quite a margin, hence the double post, but it's all factual, objective prose.
“Factually”, meaning legally speaking, but outside Shyster County, here in the real world it’s quite obvious the US has been deliberately crippling all international forum it can’t dominate since WWI with the League of Nations and later the UN it always chooses to either dictate terms or refuses to acknowledge them...
The Great Military Triad of Satan, the US, Saudi Arabia and Israel are strangely near the top as human rights violators considering their shameless self righteous attitudes...
and NATO, they do whatever the US says with very little resistance for fear of falling out of favor with the Empire, maybe one here and there will take a time out from the demands of our infernal hegemony but you can be sure they confer with each other carefully to avoid a tremor...nobody outside the Bush jr whitehouse and scared fools who ate its crap thought those wars made any sense, but Bush and Co would not take no for an answer, and the Presidents of NATO don’t mind losing some tin soldiers and committing a little massacre anymore than anyone else

So screw the people and democracy should be the new definition of “empire”, I wonder when Webster last updated that anyway
 

Horus Lupercal

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Military Triad of Satan, the US, Saudi Arabia and Israe
Factually”, meaning legally speaking
Nah, I mean factually, as in backed up by objective, measurable evidence

The US, Saudi and Israel.
Military, Triad, of Satan.

Just that one sentence, with those 3 nations together tells me you watch waaaaay too many youtube conspiracies.

You have a major Christian power, the jewish military power and one of the largest Muslim militaries, all working together to the aims of the Devil?
Ok.

I mean, they're not exactly perfectly good, (chaotic good at best) but outright evil?

That being said then, if they are the armies of darkness, who is doing Gods work?
 
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Nah, I mean factually, as in backed up by objective, measurable evidence

The US, Saudi and Israel.
Military, Triad, of Satan.

Just that one sentence, with those 3 nations together tells me you watch waaaaay too many youtube conspiracies.

You have a major Christian power, the jewish military power and one of the largest Muslim militaries, all working together to the aims of the Devil?
Ok.

I mean, they're not exactly perfectly good, (chaotic good at best) but outright evil?

That being said then, if they are the armies of darkness, who is doing Gods work?
Maybe the UN is god?
 

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"healthy cows under normal circumstances generally get pleasure from being milked"

What did we learn today? Drink milk to pleasure cows!
 

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Does not compute
CHEESE REALM, or Wisconsin as lame people call it (actually everyone just calls it Wisconsin), is America's Dairyland, because we were like the first state to have more than like 1,000 CAFOs or something. Apparently we make the best cheese here, and California cheese is like made of sawdust or something.
 

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You'd never think from looking around you that 6 in 10 people can't drink milk, huh?
 
Nah, I mean factually, as in backed up by objective, measurable evidence

The US, Saudi and Israel.
Military, Triad, of Satan.

Just that one sentence, with those 3 nations together tells me you watch waaaaay too many youtube conspiracies.

You have a major Christian power, the jewish military power and one of the largest Muslim militaries, all working together to the aims of the Devil?
Ok.

I mean, they're not exactly perfectly good, (chaotic good at best) but outright evil?

That being said then, if they are the armies of darkness, who is doing Gods work?
Mmm, YouTube no, I listen to and read normal professional journalism, no crazy TV news here
Saudi Arabia is the heartland of the Mujahideen and perhaps the most repressive Plutocracy in history
Israel’s Gaza Strip is the largest, longest sustained concentration camp in history, currently containing over 3 million civilians behind barbed wire and sniper towers...the West Bank is just a great exercise in social torture
The US, I mean do we only count the genocides we directly perpetrated?...the countless democracies we’ve crushed?

I speak of Satan in hyperbole, not as any sort of religious literalist, but yes, I believe this represents the new axis of evil that is fated for destruction in the next century, or maybe next year at this rate, because it serves nothing but itself...It’s my opinion, but there is nothing outrageous in these notions

Curiously Iran is winning the approval of the world community, along with its new found influence over Iraq which is worth what 10x, 100x all it lost by our asinine sanctions?
The US has been systematically destroying its hegemony the last few decades, we lost in Columbia and all of South America, North Korea forced us to the table and we toppled our own strong man in Iraq

There’s two types of historians, those that believe Rome valiantly fought off the barbarians and held off the dark ages as long as they could and those that see Rome destroyed Europe in its lust power and wealth
...not that I don’t appreciate sanitation and roads, but respecting the chickens we slaughter for the table is as important as loving the family dog
 

Blazer Ayanami

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The Warmasters' reply cometh.



And its enormous (That's what she said)
HOLY SHIT!



WAIT, I HAVE ONE MORE RESOURCE:



BLAZING MODE UNLEASHED.......!!!



Ok, now serious...

You'll find that even though Commonwealth countries are ran as democracies, the Queen still has ultimate power over each and every single one of those territories, the same as in Britain. She can waltz into Australia, sack each and every single person and take over any time she chooses.

Hence why it is still an Empire.
No.



Actually, I checked both Spanish Wikipedia and English Wikipedia: The Queen does not has absolute power on all these countries.



From the Spanish Wikipedia (translated by me):

"[The Commonwealth's] primary objective is international cooperation, in both political and economical branches, and, since 1950, belonging to it does not involves any submission to the British Crown"



From English Wikipedia, and I Qoute copy-paste:

"The Queen is the head of state of 16 member states, known as the Commonwealth realms, while 32 other members are republics and five others have different monarchs".



Full (english) article on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations



Which means, majority of the Commonwealth are independant nations. Guess that destroys your queen's "aboslute power" idea, doesn't it ;)?



Anyone looking to use facts rather than opinion. If you wish to definitively define something, you need a definition. And the best places for definitions are dictionaries.

So yeah, I'll being a dictionary to a debate. And any other reputable source material to back up my words, that's kinda the idea.
Noble ideals, but once again, what your dictionary brings is a linguistic definition. Not a sociopolitical and economic definition.

That's what we're debating here.



WWII. The first world war was ruinous to many European countries, but apart from enormous casualties (900,000), Britain and the Empire had been largely spared the fighting and actually expanded post-war. It wasn't until the rise of fascism and the Empire of the Rising Sun that Britain discovered it wasn't invincible and couldn't hold its territories on the other side of the world (the Blitz and fall of the previously considered impregnable fortress at Singapore drove that point home).
WWI, First World War.

I said on my previous post that although Britain still had more territory, the rising economical and political Empire was the United States of America.

On the sea? Yes, Britain's naval superiority remained uncontested until the beginning of the WW2... and maybe later. But in terms of influence, or sphere of influence, which is the modern term for colonies, the US had already influenced the whole world, and it was clear it was going to be the true Empire for a while. Even Britain was in debt with America.

Granted, the US was a monetary powerhouse and the Wall Street Crash of '29 effected the entire planet, but that didn't make it an Empire.

If anything, it was doing everything it could not to interfere with global politics, the Isolationist era.
They were isolating themselves from Europe, not from the rest of the world. They just didn't want to get involved in another European war. Basically, they were trying to make the Europeans kill each other, as they, smoothly, conquer the world. Have you heard of the Monroe Doctrine, signed in 1823?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine



"America for the Americans"?



"European nations, don't involve with America or you shall deal with us"? (This last thing wasn't explicitly written but that was the intention of the document).



What I mean is that the during the whole 1900's, 1910's, 1920's and 1930's the US was well involved in practically all Latin American nation's governments, and I dare to say, its sphere of influence or colonies engulfed the whole Latin America.



There are many examples of there expansionism, the wars with Mexico, the two military interventions in Cuba, the murder of General Sandino in Nicaragua...



So, they're isolationism only applied for European affairs, they're politics towards the rest of the continent were the typical of a rising empire, only that a little more subtle, a little more smooth than Japan in Asia and Germany in Europe, but still is the same goal: expand its sphere of influence.



So, no. I don't think the US was isolated from global politics.

Harbor...



Armor...



Color...



Truck...



A small Joke. Now back to the debate.

Also, the US doesn't control NATO or the UN. Both organisations are organised as a democracy, all members have a vote and the 'permanent' members have the veto as well. The US can't force the UN into doing something, it can ask it, or vice versa but it's more than capable of saying no.
And why a permanent membership in the first place? I know, they won WW2, defeating the fascism, and saving the free world, that's all true, but, does this nation is always in position to defend the world, or is it more concerned about its own benefit?

I don't think this role of "Police Force of the World" the US has given to itself is well based.



C'mon. If what you want is a document saying "The US is in control of all of this", of course you're not gonna find it. Politics aren't that obvious.



Still, although, technically yes, the UN is perfectly capable of saying no, you'll find that many countries follow and vote for the US, because (one more time) of its enormous political, economical and military power.



External debt, military bases... those are reasons to make a government vote for the US, no matter if they are right or not.
 

Blazer Ayanami

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The US rolled into Iraq in 2001-2002 2003 (I remember the date cos I had only been in the army 2 weeks and 2/3rds of my regiment was in Kuwait). If you remember your history, the UN had issued no less than 10 UNSC resolutions to cut the shit or get nailed. After Iraq mugged off UNSC 1441 which was the final, final, final, final, final, final, final opportunity for Iraq to toe the line and the UN were still being weak towards them. 1441 was voted in unanimously, but there was no actual backbone to follow it up with military action (even though it had sort of been authorised in previous UNSC resolutions).

What the UN didn't do, is say 'we will not strike Iraq'. Several nations (France, Germany for example) were against the idea of force, but there was nothing stopping a nation acting in a manner to defend itself against a perceived threat (like Iraq)
That's all I needed to hear. You are proving I am right.

You are repeating exactly what I said. If you refer to my previous post, I never said the UN was against taking actions against Saddam Hussein's regime, I said that, as you repeated here, and despite it wasn't written in stone, the military solution was not a viable option for most of the countries. However, that was exactly what the US did, go and rampage Irak, to install a cooperative government and gain access to the Iraqi oil.



And let's not forget what it comes with the so called "mass destruction weapons", that were never discovered.

No need, my regiment was involved in these and more. You forget Serbia, Yugoslavia, Macedonia, Sierra Leone, Ivory Coast, Somalia.
"Join the Army, see the world!"

Right, thanks for reminding me all of those.

I also forgot to mention that every single American administration since FDR (curiously, except Donald Trump) has been involved in a war.

Lets go through these then.

Kosovo.

You are aware of why NATO was involved in Kosovo, right? I'll leave a summary here for you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

Not quite the US dragging people into a shooting war for no reason.
I never questioned the reasons why they were involved. Yes, I am aware of the genocide committed by the Yugoslavian government.



And what I'm gonna say sounds like a contradiction but, here it comes.

I must confess that I still think a nation's issues can only be solved by that the people of that nation, and not by any other foreign empire...

Let's not question the reasons why NATO and the US were involved, cause that is not the point of this debate.



Let's say they did the right thing.



So, Kosovo was a NATO operation, right?

perfect...



Iraq

The US didn't drag anyone into Iraq. The other participating nations came and went as they pleased (Spain for example, left after the Madrid Train Station Bombing).





Afghanistan

Granted, the US invoked Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty. However, it was voted through unanimously (UNSC 1381) and became a NATO Operation after the formation of ISAF (I know this, because I do have an NATO/OTAN medal for this one). It doesn't sound like it was dragged kicking and screaming.





Libya

was a US led operation initially. Again, they took steps to stop a nutcase from doing bad things (in this case Gaddafi bombing protestors) and amounted to a 'no-fly zone or you'll get nailed by US fighter planes' resolution. NATO then took over the task fully and again, they weren't pulled in kicking and screaming. Even the Greeks supplied assets.

And when I say US led initially, I mean there was about 10 other nations involved with them from the start.
Okay, so except the case of Iraq, that was a war started by the US, then followed by other *cough* NATO *cough* nations, but not officially a NATO operation, everything else is pretty clear that were NATO operations.



Also, in all of them the US has either started or convinced other nations to join, of course not by screaming and kicking, politics is much more subtle than that, but there are means, Horus, political means, to drag nations to a war, and once again, the US' influence on both NATO and UN is massive.

Okay, okay. Maybe I exaggerated. Yes, they do have international laws, cause otherwise they would live in a jungle.



However, I reply with an equally small list of international treaties broken by the US. As its title says, its very explicative: "All the international agreements the US has broken before the Iran deal". You should read it.

https://qz.com/1273510/all-the-international-agreements-the-us-has-broken-before-the-iran-deal/



What's interesting is that most of the treaties and documents you mention have been used by the US to justify a military intervention.

And its also contradictory the nation with the largest nuclear arsenal in human history is so concerned about other's being making weapons or not.



If they are so worried, why they don't negotiate a full-scale disarming with all the other nuclear powers?
 

Blazer Ayanami

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Awww, you're cute if you think the US hasn't been in Syria since 2016. Also, the Korean and Vietnam War would like a word as well about the US not invading a country with Russian allies. Also, Russia did fuck all to the US back in the 70s when they were openly training and supplying the Mujahideen with MANPAD missiles and other toys.
Okay, I am aware that the US holds undercover operations, all sort of support to Anti Al-Assad armed groups, as well as sporadic missile and aerial attacks, but you have to admit they haven't launched a full-scale attack with US troops directly to the Syrian territory, like they did with the previous mentioned nations.



Also, you can't compare the Viet-Nam and Korean wars with Modern wars.



Why?



Because these wars occurred in the middle of the Cold War, and although there was a serious risk of nuclear warfare, sanity always prevailed over hatred: There would be no winners on a nuclear war. Also, back then, the enemy and the reason to fight were pretty clear: "Stop the communism", "Better Dead than Red". Those sentences could justify an intervention anywhere in the world, but today, communism is gone, so you need words like: "terrorism", "human rights", and in the case of Syria "chemical weapons".



In this case, I might admit the US cancelled the invasion to Syria was not the fear to Russia, but the fact that Russia destroyed its well-elaborated arguments to justify the invasion. "Syria will surrender all its chemical weapons, and will do under UN supervision and UN terms" was more a political master-move, than a military move.

That word rampaging. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Let's check that out. Now its when you pull out your loyal dictionary.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rampaging

rampage:

verb [ I ]



to go through an area making a lot of noise and causing damage.



Basically, yes. That's exactly what the US does, so yes, my English isn't as bad as you think. Is definitively not perfect, but I know what a word means before using it.

You think Russia gives a turd and would start a nuclear war if the US flattened Iran? In the same way as when Russia annexed the Ukraine a few years ago, there'll be lot of noises, a bit of political back and fore and the tanks will still keep moving. The big cheeses aren't going to get into a direct shooty war with each other. It's too expensive. That's why they hold proxy wars in Syria, Yemen etc instead.
Exactly, they are not gonna start a nuclear war, but an invasion to Iran could definitively trigger a conflict involving the whole Middle-East. I'm not saying its destined to happen but is certainly possible.



Also, check your news feed: Russia didn't annexed Ukraine, they annexed Crimea, after a democratic referendum where over 90 percent of the population voted in favor of joining the Russians. You can't compare a demonstration of democracy that with a military invasion to Iran.



Imperial Political Power, because the US is an Empire.

The Old Empire was hideous. We invaded where we liked, killed whatever we wanted and burned whatever we couldn't take.
You sound like Emperor Palpatine there.

Once again, you guys could do it cause there were no treaties, no organizations, no laws to stop you. It was literally a jungle.



Today, in the civilized world, the US also does all of this with all the countries where it manages to justify an invasion.

So, considering the fact that they are restricted, up to some point, by international laws, I think they have pretty much done the same as you guys.

So what about the predominantly coffee drinking countries that the UK have had a huge influence on. Didn't they get the memo that the world drinks tea?
A matter of taste. They simply didn't like tea, or saw the act of drinking tea as a form of British colonization and refused it.